Drones

What do you think of drones being used in London? Would you support them being used more, why or why not?

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Drones are aircraft without a human pilot on board. They have been used by public services in London for several years now. The Metropolitan Police Service is using them to support a range of operational activity, they were used to inspect tunnels and construction sites during Crossrail construction and the London Fire Brigade is currently trialling them when responding to incidents. They are also increasingly being used by private operators, for example to take film and TV footage or surveying.

Drones may become a more familiar sight in London in the next decade, and could be used for deliveries of post or emergency medical supplies, or even as a mode of transport.

However, some people have identified possible issues with more drone use, such as noise, safety, a loss of privacy or other environmental impacts.

Who would you want to call in the event of a complaint, such as drone noise or privacy concerns? And what are your thoughts on the next generation of urban air mobility, for instance 'flying' parcel delivery or even passenger services using small electric helicopters? Would you ever consider riding one, why or why not?

Tell us in our discussion below.

Summary

Thanks to everyone who joined in our discussion on drones. We’ve seen nearly 250 comments and have shared them with our colleagues in the Transport Team at City Hall and at Transport for London (TfL).

These are the main themes in the discussion on drones so far:

  • You’re concerned about noise, privacy issues and crime.
  • Many of you think that drones should be licensed.
  • You seem in favour of the use of drones for emergency services.
  • Some of you fear that drones might replace humans, and cause a loss of jobs.

Our policy teams would love to hear more of your views and have a few more questions. We have updated the discussion and look forward to hearing more of what you think.

The discussion ran from 20 May 2019 - 12 September 2019

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Comments (347)

Avatar for - Vaquita

I am not very fussy about privacy, but considering what happened at Heathrow airport is think that having a license to use drones, particularly in not rural areas or airports is a good idea. 

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I am not very fussy about privacy, but considering what happened at Heathrow airport is think that having a license to use drones, particularly in not rural areas or airports is a good idea. 

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So you would not mind drones with cameras inspecting you, your garden, inside your home?  Some may like to live in full public view much of the time. But I think many of us would find that very invasive.  What if children were to be put in...

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So you would not mind drones with cameras inspecting you, your garden, inside your home?  Some may like to live in full public view much of the time. But I think many of us would find that very invasive.  What if children were to be put in danger because of who was watching them via drone? 

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I've not read all comments made so far; please forgive me if I repeat what others have written.

1. I don't see that a drone is inherently safer than a car. It follows that there should be similar rules for registration, use and insurance...

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I've not read all comments made so far; please forgive me if I repeat what others have written.

1. I don't see that a drone is inherently safer than a car. It follows that there should be similar rules for registration, use and insurance. I'd be unhappy if I was injured by one and was not abe to recover damages for injury, loss or expense. there should be a fall back insurance scheme similar to that operated by the MIB, to provide cover for losses caused by untraced or uninsured operators/owners.

2. Would it not be necessary for there to be regular test similar to the MOT?

3. I personally prefer to buy things in a shop (very old fashioned, I accept), and would not wish to see any increase in deliveries whether by drones or vans. I do, however, accept that for many, one obvious example being people who are houseband, they are a Godsend.

4. One writer made a distinction between a privately-operated drone and one worked by the police or fire brigade. I'm not sure I'd be happy about a police drone hovering close by for hours on end, even if the police thought that appropriate.

5. I don't mind whom I should complain to, in case of need. But whoever it is must have technical competence and funding. Councils certainly don't have spare resources at the moment. I suspect a central body with regional offices would be best. Up to the government to provide the cash; it can always increase taxes. A levy on all drone sales by manufacturers or dealers or both would cover the cost, and tie in with the registration process. Sorry if that adds £100 to the cost of a £50 drone, but there we are; who else should pay.

6. Crimes will be committed using drones; a further need for funds to pay for police work. 

7. Though old-fashioned, I accept the need for progress, but not at my or my neighbours' expense.   

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Avatar for - Vaquita

100 % agree

 

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100 % agree

 

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Totally agree on point 4, I had a problem with an helicopter overhead at 2am on Monday morning when I had to wake up at 5am, just a little way downriver at Kew they have to follow the Thames route. I tried to call the CAA but they only work...

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Totally agree on point 4, I had a problem with an helicopter overhead at 2am on Monday morning when I had to wake up at 5am, just a little way downriver at Kew they have to follow the Thames route. I tried to call the CAA but they only work office hours so called the emergency number (why does your system reject the short form?) and asked for Police, they said it might be theirs and then the powerful searchlight came on, it was.

They were chasing burglars from the trading estate at the back of my house when one of their own followed them over a glass roof and went through it, with fatal consequences. Using helicopters when it should be men on the ground is not correct, in my opinion. In any event this went on for an hour and made my night and the next day hell, also for everybody else I was working with. They have yet to retrofit the new rotor blades that reduce the noise and the continual whump whump whump noise over my house stopped me from sleeping, having already broken my deep sleep.

If we have drones randomly flying overhead along with Heathrow expanding, they already "stretch" the hours, then West London will be hell to live in, controlled emergency use yes but otherwise NO.

PS. Heathrow should pay for every property affected by overflights to have triple glazing, doesn't help on those rare warm summer days though when we would all like to have the windows open. Alternatively Heathrow could pay for an automatic volume adjustment for our TV's and audio equipment, it would save me messing with the volume every minute and then loud ads come on. As an American once said "who on earth would build a castle (Windsor) so close to an airport", to be expected from a country with a short history (in Western terms).

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I would expect to call one of the emergency services or the council -RBKC or the Mayor's office in case of complaint, noise or privacy issues.

 

Disagree re using them or small helicopters for parcel delivery.

 

There may be a...

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I would expect to call one of the emergency services or the council -RBKC or the Mayor's office in case of complaint, noise or privacy issues.

 

Disagree re using them or small helicopters for parcel delivery.

 

There may be a requirement for emergency services for passenger use, but I would limit to that only.  Otherwise the skies risk becoming as crowded as the roads.  As someone else said, look at the chaos in Gatwick.  I would not like to see more risk to human safety or an additional means for terrorism.

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Avatar for - Vaquita

100 % agree

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100 % agree

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Drones are a pretty new technology, and it's easy for people to get carried away by the recent tide of negative press about them.

The fact is though that like any technology it can be used for good or for evil, and it may enable things...

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Drones are a pretty new technology, and it's easy for people to get carried away by the recent tide of negative press about them.

The fact is though that like any technology it can be used for good or for evil, and it may enable things that people can't even imagine right now. Whilst I can see why people might have the knee jerk reaction of demanding mandatory licencing and insurance, the fact is that only law-abiding users will fulfil their legal obligations whilst the people who will cause the most danger will just get away with it - much like with road tax and car insurance today. The practical reality is it would be orders of magnitude harder to enforce draconian licencing rules on drones (which are after all tiny, high speed flying machines!) than it is on cars (which at least can't just fly away from the authorities) and we can't even manage that.

The solution I would suggest is:

1) To create sensible laws (or extend existing ones) to forbid antisocial or harmful use, with the option of heavy fines for anyone making money from their irresponsible or illegal use.

2) Work with the drone industry to provide technical means to the authorities to down drones that are found to be breaking the law, by interfering with their comms or by having emergency overrides for the controls. Drones which do not comply with this technology should be outlawed and criminal sanctions put in place for people who import, supply or own such models.

Declaration of interest: I do not own a drone, nor work in the field, but I also don't want to see the application of this technology made more expensive or impossible simply because of a lack of forward-sightedness.

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The lack of forward-sightedness is the problem. Problems such as noise nuisance, air pollution, invasions of privacy and even safety are not regarded as sufficiently serious by government to warrant legislation or adequate funding for...

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The lack of forward-sightedness is the problem. Problems such as noise nuisance, air pollution, invasions of privacy and even safety are not regarded as sufficiently serious by government to warrant legislation or adequate funding for 'policing'. Witness government's failure to enact pedicabs' licensing legislation, a relatively simple and speedy route to enabling control of  pedicab operators' illegal and antisocial behaviour. There are other consequences of increased use of drones, and their wider use. Such as illegal invasion of children's privacy, illegal filming of children in their homes and gardens or in school playgrounds. The possibilities for abuse of drones are endless, and neither local nor national government are thinking clearly or with foresight about this.  Ban them, as no-one is prepared to undertake a proper analysis and modelling of the full impacts of greater drone availability and use, and the costs to society and the economy.

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Apart from emergency services, why do we need them in London?

They are loud, instrusive and in the wrong hands (eg terrorists or or press) capable of of being seriously misused.

They can also be dangerous; a drone in Geneva crashed close...

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Apart from emergency services, why do we need them in London?

They are loud, instrusive and in the wrong hands (eg terrorists or or press) capable of of being seriously misused.

They can also be dangerous; a drone in Geneva crashed close to pre-school kids this week.

No drones unless licensed - no licenses for leisure, personal or press use - high safety standards should always be enforced

 

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Avatar for - Vaquita

100 % agree

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100 % agree

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No licenses for deliveries either.

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No licenses for deliveries either.

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Drones are noisy, intrusive & potentially dangerous, their use should licensed & limited. I don't want to live in a ghost town where postmen & delivery people have been replaced by unregulated buzzing robots in the air. Ok for the emergency...

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Drones are noisy, intrusive & potentially dangerous, their use should licensed & limited. I don't want to live in a ghost town where postmen & delivery people have been replaced by unregulated buzzing robots in the air. Ok for the emergency services to use them judiciously bit not for wholesale surveillance in place of real police people.

 

 

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Avatar for - Vaquita

100 % agree

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100 % agree

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I had a friend stay with me for two weeks holiday she is from Japan, on her first day with me in Trafalgar Square two people dressed as Mickey Mouse approached us and signaled for her to have a photo she was speaking so he picked up on her...

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I had a friend stay with me for two weeks holiday she is from Japan, on her first day with me in Trafalgar Square two people dressed as Mickey Mouse approached us and signaled for her to have a photo she was speaking so he picked up on her accent I took a photo of them with her smart phone and then Mickey put out his hand for payment so I gave him £1 he then opened his other hand and showed be £10 that was what he wanted I looked around for a policeman but none to be seen but Mickey number2 took off his head and was talking on his phone he was an asian guy I shook my head to tell him no I am not paying hin £10 and he became aggresive until I opened my mouth that was when he realised he wasn't dealing with a tourist and ran off, I sent an email to my politician and his reply was disgusting he said you shouldn't interact with street performers we didn't they appraoched us, what he didn't say was he will get the police down there and have them arrested and charged if anything our politicians fully support crime in the capital

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A lot of these 'street performers' are part of the illegal and antisocial activities of the gangs operating the beggars, the rose-sellers, the illegal street gambling 3-cup game, and some of the buskers and some of the noisy pedicabs. At...

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A lot of these 'street performers' are part of the illegal and antisocial activities of the gangs operating the beggars, the rose-sellers, the illegal street gambling 3-cup game, and some of the buskers and some of the noisy pedicabs. At least one London resident has been attacked by one of these gang members. Some of them are dangerous, so do be careful.  Report them to the police. If they become aggressive, use 999.  Else phone 101 (costs 50p I think), or between 8am and 10pm report to Met Contact Centre via Twitter:

https://twitter.com/metcc?lang=en

 

Going via your MP is too convoluted if you want to inform the police, but do anyway let him know of any incidents.

For Trafalgar Square the Met. police are Strand and Whitehall.  https://www.police.uk/metropolitan/00BK17N/

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This is nothing to do with TfL. It’s a matter for the CAA and air traffic. TfL would be better spendingbits time focussed on road and tail transport rather than trying to expand its empire.

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This is nothing to do with TfL. It’s a matter for the CAA and air traffic. TfL would be better spendingbits time focussed on road and tail transport rather than trying to expand its empire.

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When it comes to crime in London nobody wants to know, so I wouldn't call anybody. Drones to become widespread would be a disaster as our weak lying politicians would claim it is safe like our internet yet our politicians, banks, mobile...

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When it comes to crime in London nobody wants to know, so I wouldn't call anybody. Drones to become widespread would be a disaster as our weak lying politicians would claim it is safe like our internet yet our politicians, banks, mobile phone companies, Amazon and the NHS have all been hacked yet it is still safe, these drones becoming widespread will be hacked and what is being delivered redirected and terrorist will replace the packaged with one of their own and send it on its way but of course our politicians will still claim it is safe

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Avatar for - Vaquita

100 % agree

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100 % agree

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I would expect to call the police about drone noise or privacy concerns.  Failing that, my local Council.

I have no problems with drone use by emergency and public services.

I strongly object to use of drones for deliveries : safety...

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I would expect to call the police about drone noise or privacy concerns.  Failing that, my local Council.

I have no problems with drone use by emergency and public services.

I strongly object to use of drones for deliveries : safety, noise, lack of privacy, general intrusion, disturbance to wildlife especially birds.

I also strongly object to use of drones for passenger services, for all the same reasons as for deliveries.  In a city like London we should be encouraging people to travel by public transport, not facilitating even more air travel, even if powered by renewable energy.  It would massively affect what little tranquility we can find in the city having these things buzzing around.

Yes drones should be licensed.  They're potentially dangerous and a nuisance.  I had to go and explain to a neighbour what the law is on drones near housing.  He had no idea about any of it and was just flying it around all the neighbouring gardens. It made me feel spied on. 

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Avatar for - Vaquita

100 % agree

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100 % agree

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Drones should be licensed for private use and strict guidelines in place. However enforcement of any rules would probably be minimal. Emergency services should be able to use them though.  More use for delivery would cause crowded air space...

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Drones should be licensed for private use and strict guidelines in place. However enforcement of any rules would probably be minimal. Emergency services should be able to use them though.  More use for delivery would cause crowded air space in certain areas and invasion of privacy.  Don’t know what height they are allowed to fly over peoples gardens and in rural areas livestock could be frightened

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Like all technology, drones can be useful or detrimental. Licensing might help, but how would you stop people using unlicensed drones?

If a drone was being a nuisance I would probably contact the council, as it could be considered similar...

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Like all technology, drones can be useful or detrimental. Licensing might help, but how would you stop people using unlicensed drones?

If a drone was being a nuisance I would probably contact the council, as it could be considered similar to noise nuisance. But do councils have the funds to provide this service given that they are closing youth clubs and libraries?

Drones delivering parcels could possibly reduce traffic on the roads, but only at the cost of increasing traffic in the air - just as annoying. I'm not sure the technology is robust enough yet.

How environmentally friendly are drones? Not just emissions, but disruption to the environment, especially wildlife.

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Drones do have there pros and cons based on which side of fence you are on.

It would prove to be safest and fastest to get something delivered during critical times.

However, if flights get delayed due to drones appearing it would become...

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Drones do have there pros and cons based on which side of fence you are on.

It would prove to be safest and fastest to get something delivered during critical times.

However, if flights get delayed due to drones appearing it would become a terrible experience.

I strongly feel we must find a solution where they can co-exist and also look at carbon foot print

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I would just like people to think about some of the positive points made by people who actually use drones and to keep a firm distinction between Hobbyists, commercial and delivery drones.

Hobbyist - They are usually restricted to clubs in...

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I would just like people to think about some of the positive points made by people who actually use drones and to keep a firm distinction between Hobbyists, commercial and delivery drones.

Hobbyist - They are usually restricted to clubs in private fields and do not effect the general public. They are well regulated and insured with practically no noise pollution and no privacy issues. Leave them alone. Campaign against the invasive use of CCTV and facial recognition if you are worried about privacy!

Commercial -  Again regulated and very controlled with a huge benefit to the public and great increase in safety for workers.

Delivery - I agree with most of the comments, while I perhaps could see this used in regions with low population density and buildings ( they use it in parts of Africa to deliver medicines); the idea that it could ever be practical in London is ludicrous without some quantum leap in technology.

Bottom line: stop talking about banning private use of drones. This has no effect on the general public and Gatwick / Terrorists / Prison drugs, etc will be continued by people who would not care about any laws that were made. Carrying a knife or gun is illegal and I have not seen any reduction in their use.

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Definitely very concerned about privacy issues - and we have very little means of insuring that images/data collection are not used or sold, given how much of our data is currently shared with little consent from the general public. 

I...

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Definitely very concerned about privacy issues - and we have very little means of insuring that images/data collection are not used or sold, given how much of our data is currently shared with little consent from the general public. 

I think we should ask ourselves the question of what problems drones solve in the first place. If it's delivering regular packages to people, then there are other, non invasive and environmentally friendly options, such as delivering to the nearest tube station. If it's delivering emergency/time sensitive goods, then, as streets are gradually cleared of congestion in order to respect pollution limits, one could use cycling/driving couriers exceptionally. 

They may have applications that are unique and useful for law enforcement and the fire brigade, which should be regulated and licensed. It would also be helpful for them to be marked out clearly, so that the public can recognise the purpose and owner of the drone. For example, if an unmarked drone hovers for hours above your building, that would be a stressful experience whereas if it were marked by the Fire Brigade and its use were clearly defined, one could have the confidence that it is only recording useful information and treating it sensitively. 

In urban spaces we live in close proximity to each other, have a limited access to sky and open space as well as to pockets of quiet. A more regular use of drones would encroach in what quiet airspace there is (not just with noise, but by taking up visual as well as physical space) - and it would probably be helpful to investigate whether they would be a source of adverse health or mental health effects. 

The use of drones in London should definitely be subject to research as well as a collective choice.

 

 

 

 

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Apologies for multiple posts! I received Ajax errors, which implied the post had failed. Seems this website needs a little bit of work!

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Apologies for multiple posts! I received Ajax errors, which implied the post had failed. Seems this website needs a little bit of work!

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>> Who would you want to call in the event of a complaint, such as drone noise or privacy concerns? <<

If a drone is being flown illegally - say too close to a busy road, people or property (<50m) - report it to the police (101 or 999)...

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>> Who would you want to call in the event of a complaint, such as drone noise or privacy concerns? <<

If a drone is being flown illegally - say too close to a busy road, people or property (<50m) - report it to the police (101 or 999) They have a script questionnaire that they go through to identify nature of the legal contravention.

In my view, the drone code - https://dronesafe.uk/drone-code/ - is currently insufficient for safety and privacy purposes and needs to be strengthened.

 

 

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I would say that with issues concerning new tech you are either part of the process of change or left behind. 

 

They will get quieter. They will get safer and less obtrusive. 

 

It's right to be cautious, but not so much that you leave...

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I would say that with issues concerning new tech you are either part of the process of change or left behind. 

 

They will get quieter. They will get safer and less obtrusive. 

 

It's right to be cautious, but not so much that you leave the discussion. 

 

I'm housebound due to disability. So this tech is a possible lifeline. 

 

I would urge an open mind. 

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Drones can be incredibly useful and can solve a lot of the problems we have in a congested city like London. 

I design, build and fly drones and from my personal experiences interacting with the public, a lot of the thoughts and fears they...

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Drones can be incredibly useful and can solve a lot of the problems we have in a congested city like London. 

I design, build and fly drones and from my personal experiences interacting with the public, a lot of the thoughts and fears they initially have are unfounded. 

Noise is a great example. A lot of people think drones are incredibly loud but in many instances, ambient noise from traffic or other sources completely cancels this out. 

Additonally, privacy is a major concern but CCTV is more invasive than drones could ever be. 

Lastly, most people don't realise how safe most drones are. Most people haven't even seen one in real life, let alone flown one. However, the technology is much more mature than people give it credit for. Furthermore, it is very easy to introduce further safety measures in case of emergencies such as flying over emptier areas like the river, or adding parachutes and other hardware. 

The main problem is that people fear what they do not understand, and until more people are able to see drones up close and in action, this will continue to be the case.

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Avatar for - Staghorn coral

Drones should be use dby emergency services only. If to our pollution problems in cities we add now a sky with drones, air transport and other fancy machines, what is going to happen to us, pedestrians? We need fewer cars, more people...

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Drones should be use dby emergency services only. If to our pollution problems in cities we add now a sky with drones, air transport and other fancy machines, what is going to happen to us, pedestrians? We need fewer cars, more people cycling and walking and better urban planning to alleviate the problems of traffic jams, lethal pollution and dirty streets. Instead we now want to conquer the air and clogging with artifacts that don't bring any real solutions. Improve the rail system and streets will see a drop in cars. 

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