Drones
What do you think of drones being used in London? Would you support them being used more, why or why not?
Drones are aircraft without a human pilot on board. They have been used by public services in London for several years now. The Metropolitan Police Service is using them to support a range of operational activity, they were used to inspect tunnels and construction sites during Crossrail construction and the London Fire Brigade is currently trialling them when responding to incidents. They are also increasingly being used by private operators, for example to take film and TV footage or surveying.
Drones may become a more familiar sight in London in the next decade, and could be used for deliveries of post or emergency medical supplies, or even as a mode of transport.
However, some people have identified possible issues with more drone use, such as noise, safety, a loss of privacy or other environmental impacts.
Who would you want to call in the event of a complaint, such as drone noise or privacy concerns? And what are your thoughts on the next generation of urban air mobility, for instance 'flying' parcel delivery or even passenger services using small electric helicopters? Would you ever consider riding one, why or why not?
Tell us in our discussion below.
Summary
Thanks to everyone who joined in our discussion on drones. We’ve seen nearly 250 comments and have shared them with our colleagues in the Transport Team at City Hall and at Transport for London (TfL).
These are the main themes in the discussion on drones so far:
- You’re concerned about noise, privacy issues and crime.
- Many of you think that drones should be licensed.
- You seem in favour of the use of drones for emergency services.
- Some of you fear that drones might replace humans, and cause a loss of jobs.
Our policy teams would love to hear more of your views and have a few more questions. We have updated the discussion and look forward to hearing more of what you think.
The discussion ran from 20 May 2019 - 12 September 2019
Closed
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Community Member 6 years agoDrones can intrusive, distracting, noisy and therefore should be used by the emergency services and regulated public authorities only. To use them for commercial deliveries would inevitably lead to crowded airspace above our roads and homes...
Show full commentDrones can intrusive, distracting, noisy and therefore should be used by the emergency services and regulated public authorities only. To use them for commercial deliveries would inevitably lead to crowded airspace above our roads and homes.
Show less of commentBerengaria
Community Member 6 years agoI agree with plinkyplonk. Drones for us by emergency services only. Stiff penalties for non-compliance.
Show full commentI agree with plinkyplonk. Drones for us by emergency services only. Stiff penalties for non-compliance.
Show less of commentGoffchris
Community Member 6 years agoYou can try to ban or regulate drones, but the fact is that it is very easy to build a drone from 3D printed parts and off-the-shelf components readily available online. So, I think you need to break the problem down into two categories:
1...
Show full commentYou can try to ban or regulate drones, but the fact is that it is very easy to build a drone from 3D printed parts and off-the-shelf components readily available online. So, I think you need to break the problem down into two categories:
1) Commercial drones bought and used unmodified by the VAST majority of users. These should be strictly regulated to require registration, licensing for pilots of drones over a certain size, and excluded from sensitive areas by hardware and software. I would also say that hand controllers should be trackable.
2) DIY drones used by terrorists, hobbyists, etc. These are impossible to regulate or control, but are thankfully a small group. Police and security personnel need to have plans and weaponry available to disable, shoot down and track drones. Drones can be disabled by jamming relevant frequencies. They can be hunted by "whitehat" drones around airports, government buildings, etc. They can be shot down if necessary if they can be tracked.
Show less of commentlivehere
Community Member 6 years agoThis is a postive approach to the drones problem. Though of course they cannot be shot down in public areas, so interceptors would have to take control and guide them down.
Show full commentThis is a postive approach to the drones problem. Though of course they cannot be shot down in public areas, so interceptors would have to take control and guide them down.
Show less of commentAnonymous - account deleted
Community Member 6 years agoI agree with Alistario's comments below. Further, I think where drones are used for legitimate purposes e.g. by emergency services or trades professionals such as roofers inspecting chimneys and broken tiles etc., users should be licensed...
Show full commentI agree with Alistario's comments below. Further, I think where drones are used for legitimate purposes e.g. by emergency services or trades professionals such as roofers inspecting chimneys and broken tiles etc., users should be licensed to fly them. No licence, no drone.
Show less of commentGeoffrey
Community Member 6 years agoI can imagine that, left to their own devices, companies like Amazon and courier & delivery companies will increasingly utilise drones. The skies will gradually be filled with things, producing continual annoyance to those over whom they...
Show full commentI can imagine that, left to their own devices, companies like Amazon and courier & delivery companies will increasingly utilise drones. The skies will gradually be filled with things, producing continual annoyance to those over whom they fly. Enjoyment of parks will be spoiled by their noise and even if the major parks could be ring-fenced off, people under the flightpaths, particularly near the warehouses from which they emanate, will have their enjoyment of their own gardens blighted. Nice idea, but the unintended consequences won’t be so welcome.
Show less of commentTarqui
Community Member 6 years agoCan people first of all remember that Drones (semi-autonomous multi-copters) are very different to model RC Helicopters and planes, so when people talk about restrictions to flying make sure they are talking about Drones and not other forms...
Show full commentCan people first of all remember that Drones (semi-autonomous multi-copters) are very different to model RC Helicopters and planes, so when people talk about restrictions to flying make sure they are talking about Drones and not other forms of aircraft. With regards to the "Gatwick Drone", this was clearly a deliberate act done with malicious intent and as such no amount of registration, drone numbering, etc would have stopped it; to put is simply noboby uses their own car or motorbike in a crime so why does anyone think that someone would use a registered Drone illegally? Stricter levels than manned aircraft - use some logic in your arguments! Multi- ton aircraft vs 5 - 15kg drone, I know which one I would be more concerned about. Statements like "Ownership of drones should be restricted to limited companies, government organisations, etc." fail to properly define the difference between commercial and recreational drones (which already have restrictions) and the fact that we are talking about using commercial drones over a city and not flying for fun in a park - the two are very different.
Please think about your statements and try and do some research before immediately jumping on the "Ban everything" bandwagon or as someone has pointed out, we will fall behind compared to other countries!
Show less of commentlivehere
Community Member 6 years agoFall behind other countries? A good thing if other countries permit drones to be flown where wildlife will be disturbed and where the noise will affect people.
Show full commentFall behind other countries? A good thing if other countries permit drones to be flown where wildlife will be disturbed and where the noise will affect people.
Show less of commentgjc
Community Member 6 years agoDrones have huge potential both for good & for evil. In reckless hands,the use of a drone can endanger innocent people.
Therefore, I suggest that, until the strictest regulations are both introduced and applied, use of drones should be...
Show full commentDrones have huge potential both for good & for evil. In reckless hands,the use of a drone can endanger innocent people.
Therefore, I suggest that, until the strictest regulations are both introduced and applied, use of drones should be restricted to the emergency services only.
Show less of commentTalk London
Official Representative 6 years agoThanks everyone for sharing your views on drones.
Some of you have mentioned flying taxis. There has been a lot speculation and research about ‘flying taxi’ concepts, but they are thought to be a number of years away from being certified for use commercially. Any services in London would be subject to approval by the Civil Aviation Authority and consultation with local authorities.
How do you feel about the idea? Would you be willing to travel in a ‘flying taxi/pilotless aircraft'? What role should the Mayor and TfL take in shaping the use of these technologies in London?
Talk London
livehere
Community Member 6 years agoNo,no, no, no. Noise. We can have electric or lpg vehicles on the ground, which are relatively quiet, but drones are not quiet at all. There is a desperate and urgent need to make London quieter. The damage to human health caused by the...
Show full commentNo,no, no, no. Noise. We can have electric or lpg vehicles on the ground, which are relatively quiet, but drones are not quiet at all. There is a desperate and urgent need to make London quieter. The damage to human health caused by the high levels of noise in London is being ignored as usual. Have the LA and Mayor heard of policy integration? Nothing should be done that increases noise levels in London. Where noise levels are relatively low, they should not be increased. Ramping up noise levels until they hit WHO guidelines for health damage is a very bad approach. And in very many areas noise levels are above those WHO guidelines, and here noise needs to be reduced. What's more, the WHO guidelines require quieter nights from 11pm to early morning. This completely ignores the needs of children for sleep, relaxation and quiet for doing homework. The WHO guidelines also mention adults' needs for relaxation in peace and quiet after work, but exclude this from the guidelines. Children are one of the most discriminated against in UK society, and their needs are rarely considered in policy making and practice and are not integrated into policies outside those directly concerning them. We therefore need NOT to have drones roaring and buzzing around above the streets of London causing major noise problems round the clock, or even just during the day and evening. Ban them.
Show less of commentAnonymous - account deleted
Community Member 6 years agoDoesn't make any sense; we should be getting more people into walking/cycling/mass transit to improve safety and air pollution, not creating yet more forms of inefficient, energy-guzzling personal transport to congest another common space...
Show full commentDoesn't make any sense; we should be getting more people into walking/cycling/mass transit to improve safety and air pollution, not creating yet more forms of inefficient, energy-guzzling personal transport to congest another common space (the air).
Show less of commentpafraser65
Community Member 6 years agoI agree with many of the people on here.
Drones should:
1. Be fully licenced and only to those with prescribed uses and who have passed a flying test.
2. Carry visible registration symbols and/or be identifiable using an app - so they...
Show full commentI agree with many of the people on here.
Drones should:
1. Be fully licenced and only to those with prescribed uses and who have passed a flying test.
2. Carry visible registration symbols and/or be identifiable using an app - so they can be reported if misused;
3. Be restricted so that they cannot fly near airports, schools, hospitals etc. where there are more vulnerable groups/issues;
4. Have minimum heights above roads
5. Be fitted with mandatory tracking to record locations, heights etc. (Like HGVs)
6. Have heavy penalties for misuse or unlicensed use including prison for unlicensed or malicious activity;
7. Have a pilot trial period to assess impact.
Show less of commentjulesMB
Community Member 6 years agoIn my view, drone use by the police or other law enforcement authorities is the greatest risk we have to our civil liberties at this time along with facial recognition equipment used without out permission.
I would suggest that if...
Show full commentIn my view, drone use by the police or other law enforcement authorities is the greatest risk we have to our civil liberties at this time along with facial recognition equipment used without out permission.
I would suggest that if permission is given to fly them, then permission should be given to shoot them down.
You can't trust them to use technology responsibly.
Show less of commentTrevor cridland
Community Member 6 years agoI think they need to be regulated. The potential for misuse is highly likely but you can't uninvent them.
They should be used only in designated areas and times and limited to a certain max power and never over peoples homes or schools
Show full commentI think they need to be regulated. The potential for misuse is highly likely but you can't uninvent them.
They should be used only in designated areas and times and limited to a certain max power and never over peoples homes or schools
Show less of commentlivehere
Community Member 6 years agoThey should not be flown in the countryside either, as wildlife will be disturbed, and in the 'burbs, villages, towns and cities, they must not be flown where people will be affected by the noise. Ban them.
Show full commentThey should not be flown in the countryside either, as wildlife will be disturbed, and in the 'burbs, villages, towns and cities, they must not be flown where people will be affected by the noise. Ban them.
Show less of commentl.paulauskas
Community Member 6 years agoAs can be said with any law prohibiting or controlling use of certain items (e.g. guns, knives, drones). It only applies to law abiding people. Therefore, I think if terrorist of criminal decides to use the drone for crime or attack, it...
Show full commentAs can be said with any law prohibiting or controlling use of certain items (e.g. guns, knives, drones). It only applies to law abiding people. Therefore, I think if terrorist of criminal decides to use the drone for crime or attack, it literally doesn't matter what laws prohibiting such use we going to have - criminals don't go by the laws because.. well they are criminals.
When it comes to surveillance we have completely different issue here - government has shown times and times again that they cannot be trusted with spying on people for benefit of the public. As such myself and I believe majority of population would be against drone surveillance being used.
When it comes to licences and liabilities I believe we already have all laws necessary to deal with it. Large drone is not a toy and considering the prices nobody treats it as such. If it "falls out of the sky" there are already laws which can be used both to establish liability of manufacturer (for faulty product) and liability of operator - causing injury or death because of negligence or maybe even deliberately. So legislatively I don't think we need any changes and any new arbitrary draconian laws to control issue which doesn't exist.
Finally, when it comes to prevention I think it would be sensible for government agencies to invest in schemes designed to safely takedown rogue drones (current inability was displayed in Gatwick attack). That would be right choice of action over erecting non-functioning laws which would merely be inconvenience for anyone using the drones for any reason, but still not having plan in place when bad actors who by default ignores the laws uses the drones to their advantage.
Show less of commentlivehere
Community Member 6 years agoDrones are remarkable cheap.
Show full commentDrones are remarkable cheap.
Show less of commentl.paulauskas
Community Member 6 years agoWell, what exactly is remarcably cheap? Yes you can buy Drone from £5 to £50000. So yes we can say £5 is remarcably cheap, but what is important - what Drone you could get for the price say under £200 (which is something most people going...
Show full commentWell, what exactly is remarcably cheap? Yes you can buy Drone from £5 to £50000. So yes we can say £5 is remarcably cheap, but what is important - what Drone you could get for the price say under £200 (which is something most people going to be able to afford). The answer is that you could buy tiny "toy" drone which usually doesn't have capacity to even cary gopro and has flying time of 5 minutes and charging time of 30. Is this really a threat to anyone?
Somwhere in the middle you have enthusiast Drones, which I would like to have myself but cannot justify the cost, say DJI Mavic Pro 2 - which is literally is more of camera tool (like gimbal or tripod) then a Drone. Yes it has quick charging and fly time of ~30 minutes, capacity to cary good quality action camera and stabilising gear ~500g, it weighs 907g with camera fitted. The cost £1200 for entry level spec. Goes all the way to £1800 with accessories. If you feel drone carying 500g is a threat (perhaps to privacy) fair enough. But it is not large or heavy enough to injure anyone (but feelings I guess). One specifically spotted in Gatwick was DJI Inspire 2 - £3600, fly time of ~35min, 3.4kg, range of 7KM, but again it doesn't hame much of lift capacity - somethign I would consider "medium size drone"
On other spectrum the Drones with capacity to carry full size camera (~2kg, so potentially explosives) and weighting themselves several kg with wing-span over a metre could esily cost in excess of £10000 e.g. FreeFly Alta 8 can carry 12kg and fly for 20 minutes, or 50 min when empty (~6.2kg). I agree that 6.2kg falling from few Km can injure or even kill somebody, but there comes the price - $18000. Do you think amature terorist going to spend that much, why not rent a Van? And what about skill to even fly it - they would probably crash straigh away into themselves. Yes such machines needs a license to fly.
But lets compare apples to apples when saying "drones are cheap".
Show less of commentAnonymous - account deleted
Community Member 6 years agoThe large scale use of drones by commercial organisation, especiallys deliveries, would result in a mssive overuse of the airspace. If a single mozzie buzzing is an annoyance imagine thousands of drones robotically flying above our heads...
Show full commentThe large scale use of drones by commercial organisation, especiallys deliveries, would result in a mssive overuse of the airspace. If a single mozzie buzzing is an annoyance imagine thousands of drones robotically flying above our heads, we already have a major noise pollution problem and the point is they are not quiet, just quieter until you have a swarm. I am not being alarmist, give an inch and they will take a mile (look at Heathrow), it will be impossible to police, law or no law, offences will not be actioned. Little thought has been given to flying many in close proximity, local area detectors on board, the equivalent of radar to avoid collisions is one thing, but they all rely on GPS, a major solar flare disrupts satellites and therefore GPS, when is the automatic safe landing going to be implmented when GPS fails.
It will be even worse when you consider we will have to rely on the US GPS system and they can reset it when they choose, I doubt they will say "Do you mind old boy, your drones will be 100 meters out while we reset our GPS for missile firing", I worry they will be crashing into buildings and people until failsafe landing is implemented first, before we do anything to legalise major usage.
They do have a use in moving life saving supplies and for remote site deliveries, not large scale deliveries in a city and I too would be concerned about any extension of authority use in spying on the population. It can be a nice hobby given the same rules and areas that are used by model aircraft and subject to a formal licence.
Show less of commentSordello
Community Member 6 years agoRegulation is very important but drones can be useful, e.g. for council housing depts and social landlords in surveying the conditions of roofs etc. They might also be useful for identifying repair issues in roadways. Widespread private use...
Show full commentRegulation is very important but drones can be useful, e.g. for council housing depts and social landlords in surveying the conditions of roofs etc. They might also be useful for identifying repair issues in roadways. Widespread private use of drones could become very disruprive and polluting.
Show less of commentkw1330
Community Member 6 years agoDrones should be allowed as long they're safely used. The 50m exclusion zone is a good idea. I'm not against legislation to have licenses for users, but maybe over burdonsome and too administrative. Perhaps there shoud be distinction made...
Show full commentDrones should be allowed as long they're safely used. The 50m exclusion zone is a good idea. I'm not against legislation to have licenses for users, but maybe over burdonsome and too administrative. Perhaps there shoud be distinction made between childrens toys and commercial drones over a certain size. Definitely useful for medical and emergency services.
Show less of commentCOSMA
Community Member 6 years agoDrones are not toys and should not be considered toys.
Drones of course are here to stay and do have their place in our society, however like others who have commented I agree that they should strictly only be used by our emergency...
Show full commentDrones are not toys and should not be considered toys.
Drones of course are here to stay and do have their place in our society, however like others who have commented I agree that they should strictly only be used by our emergency services, otherwise it will mean additional scares, accidents, tears, problems and concerns.
Please, lets keep London and our entire nation safe.
Show less of commentmcdermott_alan
Community Member 6 years agoDrones should be seen like HGV lorries or double decker buses. Only to be driven by qualified and licensed peple for legitimate and tightly defined commercial purposes in appropriate places and situations, such as inspecting hard or...
Show full commentDrones should be seen like HGV lorries or double decker buses. Only to be driven by qualified and licensed peple for legitimate and tightly defined commercial purposes in appropriate places and situations, such as inspecting hard or dangerous to access locations and structures.
They should never be allow as recreational toys. Their inconsiderate use as such has spoiled more than one of my visits to London Parks.
More serious is the concern that they would be used for a range of mischievous or criminal acts, either disruption such as at Gatwick, intrusion of personal privacy or commercial confidentiality, carrying out illegal activities such as distributing drugs, weapons and so on.
Show less of commentganeshaguru
Community Member 6 years agoDrones should be only used for security purposes and should be tagged/licenced.
Show full commentDrones should be only used for security purposes and should be tagged/licenced.
Show less of commentsimont
Community Member 6 years agoI don't accept that there is a need for civil or commercial drones. I am dubious about the need for them by the emergency services either but am prepared to listen to any case they make.
As has previously been said, they could cause...
Show full commentI don't accept that there is a need for civil or commercial drones. I am dubious about the need for them by the emergency services either but am prepared to listen to any case they make.
As has previously been said, they could cause severe damage if they crashed and are likely to be very distracting to drivers.
We have enough problems with aircraft noise without introducing drones.
Show less of commentturaco
Community Member 6 years agoI don't know what the present regulations are, but I agree with the lines of thought that drone operators should require a licence, that there should be certain height and other limits on the drones' operation, but that otherwise we should...
Show full commentI don't know what the present regulations are, but I agree with the lines of thought that drone operators should require a licence, that there should be certain height and other limits on the drones' operation, but that otherwise we should be wary of over-regulation and should let a new technology flourish.
Show less of comment