Incentivising switch to cleaner vehicles

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While newer diesel vehicles can be better than older cars for the environment, under certain conditions, such as short, slow speed journeys, as often found in London, they produce almost as much harmful NOx as new lorries . One potential measure to reduce the impact on this is the introduction of a diesel scrappage scheme, providing incentives to diesel car drivers (or older petrol vehicles) to switch to cleaner, low emissions vehicles or away from cars altogether.

This incentive could take a number of forms, such as discounts on new vehicles (as in a previous national government scrappage scheme), or another subsidy such as reduced car club membership.

What do you think? Do you currently drive a diesel vehicle, and if so, what would encourage you to switch? What would stop you from upgrading to a cleaner vehicle?

The discussion ran from 04 July 2016 - 07 October 2016

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Whwat is theenvironmental cost of scrapping perrfectly functional vehicles? I am against this idea of ascrappage scheme. Thevehicles are fine to live their expected life as long as they are not in an area which does not have apollution...

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Whwat is theenvironmental cost of scrapping perrfectly functional vehicles? I am against this idea of ascrappage scheme. Thevehicles are fine to live their expected life as long as they are not in an area which does not have apollution problem. Can we broker sales deals with car dealers in Wales or Cornwall? We just need to get them out of London.
There needs to be disincentives to own diesel vehicles in London. Refusal of new parking permits for residents with polluting vehicles. A newtax on sales of those through vehicle dealers within the M25. Increased rate of residents parking perits according to engien size and fuel type. Greater promotion of electric vehicles. Not licensing new taxis with diesel engines within London from 2020. Revert the congestion charge zoneback to the original size to cover West London residents. Introduce 20mph speed liits. Impose ademolition tax on developments toencourage conversion rather than razing and revuilding ( thus liiting the number of lorries to takeaway the rubble and with the funds going to fiance green initiatives. Set up conversion centres to transform diesel fuelled cars to run on veg oil. I know several people who have donethiswith no problems at all. More parkign spaces for electric vehicles. Remove the exempton for residents. Some of the worst ehicles are owned by peoplewho live in the inner city. It is not some kind of vehicle immigration that is causing the problem. It is our neighbours. Stop being sohard on tuck tuks.

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A TAX ON THOSE THAT CAN LEAST AFFORD IT

How is scrapping perfectly usable cars good for the environment? the environmental cost of building replacement cars far outweighs the damage that would be caused by leaving the older cars on the...

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A TAX ON THOSE THAT CAN LEAST AFFORD IT

How is scrapping perfectly usable cars good for the environment? the environmental cost of building replacement cars far outweighs the damage that would be caused by leaving the older cars on the road. this plan was devised in the EU to bolster the car industry.
A tax on those that can least afford it.
large companies can afford to run new compliant vehicles. many small struggling companies cannot. the middle class can afford newer vehicles. the individual resident already driving an older car is likely doing so because they can't afford a newer vehicle, and now face their family car being banned with now no resale value locally.
The Congestion Charge, Low Emission Zone and Ultra Low Emission Zone were introduced to bring London in line with EU targets for major cities within Europe. Now since the EU referendum and Brexit outcome we stand on the precipice of deep recession, yet the mayor in a quest for soundbites seeks to drive even more van reliant small businesses out of business, as happened with the introduction of the Low Emission Zone several years ago. In addition diesel car owners with older cars are those which can least afford to replace their banned vehicles. Financial suicide for London and hardship for it's residents bowing to the EU which will have shunned us by 2020. Why the rush to push for economic ruin? and why now, amidst such uncertainty?

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Oscar - if you have a better idea on how to reduce vehicle emissions - nitrous oxides and particulates - please share it.

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Oscar. Because people are dying here because of the poor air quality.

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I drive a diesel and for my children's sake would love to switch to an electric car. A discount (I think there used to be £5k subsidy) towards a new electric car would be helpful, but also more charging points, as I live in a flat and have...

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I drive a diesel and for my children's sake would love to switch to an electric car. A discount (I think there used to be £5k subsidy) towards a new electric car would be helpful, but also more charging points, as I live in a flat and have to rely on on-street parking/ charging.

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Nice idea but there would need to be a quota, n ot exceeding the number of charging and parking points available.it would be a slower roll out than might be needed.

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Nice idea but there would need to be a quota, n ot exceeding the number of charging and parking points available.it would be a slower roll out than might be needed.

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I own an older (11 year old) vehicle. It has a new engine and is dual-fuel. I run on LPG all the time and it's as near zero pollution as you can be. I'm really worried tbat I might be forced to scrap it with this proposed legislation. I've...

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I own an older (11 year old) vehicle. It has a new engine and is dual-fuel. I run on LPG all the time and it's as near zero pollution as you can be. I'm really worried tbat I might be forced to scrap it with this proposed legislation. I've spent a lot of money keeping my vehicle in top-notch condition and feel that some exemption should be made in that regard.
Surely a simple emissions test could identify those vehicles that should be scrapped. Every vehicle has that test every year anyway during its MOT test.

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MOT could be a fail-safe way of maintaining low emissions standards, providing the vehicle was tested in real-life situations. LPG is good but generally regarded as a halfway house - cleaner than petrol, let along diesel, but not without...

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MOT could be a fail-safe way of maintaining low emissions standards, providing the vehicle was tested in real-life situations. LPG is good but generally regarded as a halfway house - cleaner than petrol, let along diesel, but not without its emissions. LPG would not be the first to get a black mark.

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Use of electric vehicles inc. private ones could be encouraged. This means providing more charging points.

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Use of electric vehicles inc. private ones could be encouraged. This means providing more charging points.

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Electric vehicle batteries are getting lighter and quicker to charge. Seems like public opinion is at a tipping point here. A Teddington petrol station is not only selling hydrogen but it is also making it on site (put simply, an electric...

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Electric vehicle batteries are getting lighter and quicker to charge. Seems like public opinion is at a tipping point here. A Teddington petrol station is not only selling hydrogen but it is also making it on site (put simply, an electric charge through water does the job). Hyundai is making hydrogen vehicles. Who will win the market? Hydrogen or electric batteries? Or will it be something else altogether? In the meantime, the Mayor could set up a programme of retrofitting the most polluting diesel vehicles (by-product ammonia, hope this is OK?). I understand that it is not worth retrofitting petrol vehicles. We also need to keep in mind particulates caused by brake and tire wear - a major cause of pollution. The heavier the vehicle the more the particulates. Apparently a JCB generates 15x particulates as a bus.

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Yes, it isn't certain which new technology will win in the end. The cost of the cars will come down in time as the technologies are adopted. We have a Tesla, with over 200 mile range. Their next cars will be half the price of the one we...

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Yes, it isn't certain which new technology will win in the end. The cost of the cars will come down in time as the technologies are adopted. We have a Tesla, with over 200 mile range. Their next cars will be half the price of the one we have and that is due to the advances in the battery technology. The range is also extending as they develop the batteries. We live part of the time 100 miles into Wales and there are no charging points there (except at our place). However, on the journey between London and Wales, pretty well all the service stations have charging points and Bristol, with has a very good green reputation, has several places including supermarket car parks with charging points of various kinds. We charge the car and do our shopping while we wait to charge.

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So, I too bought a diesel car (3-year old Audi, second hand a year and a half ago). I was reluctant but my new partner had had a VW diesel previously (which needed replacing). She showed me lots of evidence that diesel cars were better for...

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So, I too bought a diesel car (3-year old Audi, second hand a year and a half ago). I was reluctant but my new partner had had a VW diesel previously (which needed replacing). She showed me lots of evidence that diesel cars were better for the environment than petrol cars. That now turns out to be so much codswallopp ... even if Audi hadn't cheated (and we are still waiting for them to 'fix' our car, all these months after they admitted to cheating), it transpires that all diesel cars emit far more NOX and other polluting particles than petrol cars and than they state in their information or appear to do when being tested.

So, a number of measures need to be implemented (just in relation to diesel cars):

1. VW need to be forced to repair all cars within next three months.
2. All diesel manufacturers to be forced to repair their cars so that they perform as advertised and tested in real world conditions - for free, and within next 6 months.
3. Incentives to scrap and replace older most polluting vehicles ... although I recognise that this will penalise the less well off unfairly as they will most likely be the ones driving them).
4. No diesel cars allowed as mini-cabs or cabs.

With regard to other more-wide reaching measures:

1. Erect pollution measurement and electronic display devices right across London - so that people can see the numbers staring them in the face. Nothing works better to sway public opinion than hard facts 'pushed' at the ad made impossible to ignore.
2. I would ban driving kids to and from school.
3. Make more car-free areas around London.
4. Encourage the move to electric vehicles - cars, scooters and e-bikes. And deploy considerably more infrastructure such as charging points to support this. Use financial incentives, electric-only lanes, road tax, etc. to hasten the transition.
5. Focus on initiatives that promote the use of public transport: improved rolling stock, improved frequencies, better facilities at edge-of-city stations to allow ease of transfer from car to public transport, better fare policies (such as a lower max charge per day, more flexibility for bus hopping without paying twice, etc.), better integration of overground and underground stations and networks, and more.
6. Reduce maximum speed to 20mph in most areas.
7. Discourage large transport (lorries in effect, but coaches too) from entering central London with onerous taxes/penalties.
8. Have car-free days in certain areas of town - especially during summer months when pollution is highest.
9. Dedicated bike lanes and networks so that riders can be safe.
10. Better and tighter restrictions on construction work with monthly charges and additional penalties for broaching certain levels (although I am unclear on how this would be measured).

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Thanks for the comments here so far. Keep them coming!

What are the main barriers preventing you from upgrading to a non-diesel or low emission vehicle, such as an electric vehicle? Is it primarily cost, or other factors too?

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Well, for me it's:
a) cost - had planned to run this car into the ground, and a new car would be a big unanticipated cost
b) waste - yes, I do see that the car we have shouldn't be driven in cities - BUT it's a great car, with thousands of...

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Well, for me it's:
a) cost - had planned to run this car into the ground, and a new car would be a big unanticipated cost
b) waste - yes, I do see that the car we have shouldn't be driven in cities - BUT it's a great car, with thousands of miles of life in it. It would be immoral and wasteful to scrap it. If we were going to get rid of it, we'd sell it
c) range - electric cars still aren't great for long journeys, and we pretty much only use our car for going out of London to visit elderly relations, so range really matters

I must say, if you offered us a good incentive to get rid of our car and NOT replace it, then we'd think about that very seriously.

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I have similar reasons to bananas as to why I am not yet seriously considering buying an electric car (although I have done a fair amount of research as I would really like one) - cost, range concerns on current models, and also the...

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I have similar reasons to bananas as to why I am not yet seriously considering buying an electric car (although I have done a fair amount of research as I would really like one) - cost, range concerns on current models, and also the infrastructure simply isn't good enough yet to make me feel comfortable that I won't get marooned in the middle of nowhere because I can't find a charging point. Whilst I know there are several charging points close to where I live in London, the charging point maps I have looked at so far seem to show them as rather few and far between in some of the places I drive to regularly outside of London.

However if for example there were charging points at every petrol station country wide then it would make a big difference because you would be more likely to find an available charging point within a few miles of wherever you are when you're running low, and therefore won't worry so much about driving the car closer to its range limit. We also need far more "superchargers" than there are currently, i.e. the high tension ones that will charge the car to 80% in 20-30 minutes, so it can be done as a coffee / lunch break during a journey rather than having to plan overnight or very long stops around "refuelling" the car. When it becomes almost as easy and quick to charge your electric car as it currently is to fill a petrol car with a tank of fuel and have a cup of coffee, then I really think they will take off - but it's just not quite there yet.

Because of the requirement for a national infrastructure for electric cars, I think encouragement / development this has to be something promoted and incentivised by central Government and not local Government (although there's obviously nothing to stop the Mayor coming up with additional incentives unilaterally as well). However if the Government could bring in measures of some sort (tax breaks / subsidies / centralised funding / laws?) to encourage or even force say all service and petrol station operators to provide electric charging points wherever they currently have pumps over the next 5 years or so, that would really help get this infrastructure off the ground, and that combined with inevitable improvements in battery technology to extend the range of electric cars would I think really start to see them being taken up in greater numbers.

I had not really thought about the waste argument as my current car is not brand new, but I think it could easily last another 10 years as it is kept well maintained, so it does seem a waste to scrap it too.

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A scrappage scheme would be most helpful or a grant to switch to a LPG.

A scrappage deal of £5,000 would be off no benefit if the new vehicles are going to cost 10,15, or £20,000 more than their current price.

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A scrappage scheme would be most helpful or a grant to switch to a LPG.

A scrappage deal of £5,000 would be off no benefit if the new vehicles are going to cost 10,15, or £20,000 more than their current price.

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Rather than punishing people for the vehicles they currently have, the policy should be to encourage people to change or reduce their vehicle usage.This seems like a typical stealth tax on the motorist (the usual easy target).
How about...

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Rather than punishing people for the vehicles they currently have, the policy should be to encourage people to change or reduce their vehicle usage.This seems like a typical stealth tax on the motorist (the usual easy target).
How about instead offering a "discount voucher" against a new vehicle, or additional incentives for electric/hybrid vehicles?
More investment is also needed in charging infrastructure to make it work. I have a plug in hybrid car and have so far never used a public charge point. Most are slow charge only and do not provide a tethered cable.
It will cost me hundreds of pounds for a cable, and when parked for an hour or two, the charge gained is minimal. No real point - unless there is a fast DC charge point it takes about 6 hours to charge.
As far as I am aware there is also no subsidy to install a charge point at my work so why should the business spend a significant amount on this?
Could always reduce public transport fares, that may encourage more people to ditch their cars.

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I think the incentives should include options to scrap motor vehicles altogether and replace with, for example, electric-assist cargo bicycles.

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I think the incentives should include options to scrap motor vehicles altogether and replace with, for example, electric-assist cargo bicycles.

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I also wonder if different options are appropriate for different boroughs. I live in Inner London - Zone 2 - and whilst there are loads of people who own and drive cars, I don't accept that the majority of them couldn't find other options...

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I also wonder if different options are appropriate for different boroughs. I live in Inner London - Zone 2 - and whilst there are loads of people who own and drive cars, I don't accept that the majority of them couldn't find other options for most of their journeys.

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Like Car clubs. I am pleased to see the VW electric car club stations growing.

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Like Car clubs. I am pleased to see the VW electric car club stations growing.

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We bought a diesel car in good faith. I now accept that we did the wrong thing, but it's what we have, and I can't think that buying a new car (even if that were financially possible) would be the right thing to do, environmentally.

It's...

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We bought a diesel car in good faith. I now accept that we did the wrong thing, but it's what we have, and I can't think that buying a new car (even if that were financially possible) would be the right thing to do, environmentally.

It's my understanding that diesel vehicles still are a good choice for longer trips outside urban areas, and this is what we (almost exclusively) use ours for.

My suggestion, for a scheme that would reduce diesel USE in London would be:

- Offer all residents of LEZ/ULEZ a choice - they can either pay the full charge, and drive as much as they want on any day, OR they can agree to fit some sort of transponder which monitors when and how they use their car, and bills them on a km/hr basis (probably with higher charges at peak times). This would mean that people who keep a car essentially to leave London with would not be penalised simply for ownership, but that actually driving the car within London would attract a charge.

- If effective retro-fitting of pollution capture devices is available, the scrappage scheme could pay a (high) proportion of that cost

- Getting rid of a diesel car completely could entitle the owner plus partner to free Travelcards for perhaps 2 years, plus free membership (again for a fixed period) of a car club

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Retrospective pollution capture - almost impossible as it would cost so much to integrate with complex electronics and exhaust systems in existing cars. Car companies spend billions developing their cars - it would not be economical...

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Retrospective pollution capture - almost impossible as it would cost so much to integrate with complex electronics and exhaust systems in existing cars. Car companies spend billions developing their cars - it would not be economical compared to switching cars. If you have a diesel car and only need to use it for longer trips then this should have minimal effect, which is appropriate as you are not cruising around central London at crawling pace like the majority of cabs, vans, and private cars that this measure is targeting. Driving in Central London makes very little sense.

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It is possiblet o convert deisel cars to run on vegetable oil. An American friend from remote peanut- farming territory told met hatt they had been doing this for decades out there (because they made peanut oil). Later i met a guy called...

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It is possiblet o convert deisel cars to run on vegetable oil. An American friend from remote peanut- farming territory told met hatt they had been doing this for decades out there (because they made peanut oil). Later i met a guy called Chris from veggiepower.co.uk. He willhelp you to do it,and he has lots ofinformation on the tech to back it up,and the legal sideabout whether you need to pay duty on it or not (also gob-smackingly easy). Have a look at their website.

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This is potentially very regressive and will hit those least able to afford it without additional support for people to acquire new(er) vehicles, and I agree it is not fair to target drovers who bought diesel vehicles in good faith. I...

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This is potentially very regressive and will hit those least able to afford it without additional support for people to acquire new(er) vehicles, and I agree it is not fair to target drovers who bought diesel vehicles in good faith. I wouldn't describe myself as low income but I can't afford to replace my 15 year old petrol car, and I can't even consider an electric car without some serious improvements in electric car technology to give a range to match that of current petrol or diesel cars as my journeys are too long for current electric only cars. Many of the cars I would consider buying aren't even available in anything other than as a diesel.

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In agreement with this idea BUT it should be extended to older petrol cars not just diesels if they are to be included in the proposed ULEZ charges. Why should drivers of older diesels be compensated for changing their car whereas drivers...

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In agreement with this idea BUT it should be extended to older petrol cars not just diesels if they are to be included in the proposed ULEZ charges. Why should drivers of older diesels be compensated for changing their car whereas drivers of older petrol cars, which would have to pay the same ULEZ charge as a diesel under the current proposals, won't be? I also think it should not be restricted only to options that do not involve buying another car. Not all people can or want to join a car club or commute by bike and for some it is simply impractical not to own a car so it should be possible to choose to use use the money against the purchase of another car (including a newer second hand car) that exceeds the ULEZ requirements, even if other options are available such as car club membership.

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Petrol vehicles generally produce far less of the pollutants that this measure is targeting and that affect human health i.e. NO2. This is why it is diesel vehicles that are being targeted, they are the main problem and getting rid of them...

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Petrol vehicles generally produce far less of the pollutants that this measure is targeting and that affect human health i.e. NO2. This is why it is diesel vehicles that are being targeted, they are the main problem and getting rid of them would produce the biggest effect.

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In order to encourage mass uptake of affordable electric vehicles, the mature charging infrastructure is needed. Penalising the use of pollutting vehicles should be harsh, making the choice between using the old vehicle and buying a new...

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In order to encourage mass uptake of affordable electric vehicles, the mature charging infrastructure is needed. Penalising the use of pollutting vehicles should be harsh, making the choice between using the old vehicle and buying a new cleaner car easier. Money should not be spent on scrappage scheme, but rather on the incentives not to use a car at all.

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Whilst I am 100% in agreement about improving the electric charging infrastructure being one of the best incentives to switch to an electric or plug in hybrid car (in fact it's the main reason I have not yet considered it as I live in a...

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Whilst I am 100% in agreement about improving the electric charging infrastructure being one of the best incentives to switch to an electric or plug in hybrid car (in fact it's the main reason I have not yet considered it as I live in a flat and could not charge the car at home) I don't agree that there should be sudden and punitive charges on existing cars. People bought diesels in good faith when the government promoted them as environmentally friendly options (which has since been proven wrong) so it is unfair to punish them retrospectively for decisions taken in good faith when prevailing knowledge was different. Whilst I am in favour of some sort of pollution / emission charge it should not be a flat rate as currently proposed because that is both regressive in that it affects the poorest the most and does not incentivise people with newer, but still relatively polluting, cars to switch to electric or hybrid or reduce their car use because they don't pay a penny. As an example someone with an older car that does half a mile in the zone once a week would get clobbered with a £650 a year charge for polluting far less in the grand scheme of things than someone who drives 10000 miles in a petrol or diesel car that is just new enough to avoid the charge. I would lay a very large bet that the latter produces a lot more pollution inside the zone than the former over the course of the year but the owner doesn't pay a penny as it is not eligible for the charge, so where is the incentive to buy an electric or plug in hybrid car that produces far less (or no) pollution? My preference would be a rate based on mileage done in the zone on ALL cars possibly with a reduction for newer cars (and a zero rate for zero emissions cars). That truly respects the principle of polluter pays AND would incentivise people, especially those who drive more miles in the zone, to buy an electric car, especially if the charging infrastructure were in place and there was a scrappage scheme for the older cars (both petrol and diesel) in place.

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I drive an older VW campervan, it is diesel and would need to be scrapped due to these laws, to buy a modern clean version would cost me over£50k I could never afford that, I can't even afford to buy a bottom of the range new 1.0L small car...

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I drive an older VW campervan, it is diesel and would need to be scrapped due to these laws, to buy a modern clean version would cost me over£50k I could never afford that, I can't even afford to buy a bottom of the range new 1.0L small car. All this is going to do is hurt the low income families like mine.

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