Lead off question - Delays to Crossrail (Supplementary) [14]

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  I know it was towards the end of July.  I am reminded it was 25 July.  The 25th.

Keith Prince AM:  25 July.  Could you just share with us perhaps when you would normally receive briefing papers for such a meeting?

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  Normally the week before.  We issued them on the Friday before the 25th. 

Keith Prince AM:  In those briefing papers was it flagged up that these issues were raised and that there was a possibility there could be a delay?

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  No, not the question of the delay.  What was reported on was the fact that, based on the assumptions we had within the milestones that we had determined would get us to the date in December [2018], we were not at that time achieving productivity on testing and not getting to a firm conclusion on closure of the infrastructure work.  There were concerns raised about progress being made in that reporting period. 

Keith Prince AM:  It would not have occurred to you, having read those papers, that there was the possibility of a delay?

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  When we had the Board meeting and we discussed it, it was quite clear that the reasons that were raising themselves in terms of progress were that the Executive were not ready to confirm the consequences of that work, which is why we then commissioned further work to be done and introduced an extraordinary Board meeting in August to review the conclusions of that work. 

Keith Prince AM:  Are you saying those papers did not give you any concern or that they did not indicate to you in any way that there may be some kind of delay?

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  They gave us concerns but there were no dates.

Keith Prince AM:  I am not saying ‑‑ I am asking ‑‑

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  There were concerns but there were certainly no dates beyond that which supported the opening in December 2018, which is why when the Executive came back and said, as I said, “There are concerns now coming of a fall in the programme”, we said we needed time to go away and reflect on what we had learned so far and what the consequences are of that.  I thought it appropriate to give the Executive time to make sure that they had thought through the consequences.  It was obviously a very difficult decision for us to make. 

Keith Prince AM:  When you went into that meeting on the 25^th [July 2018], not after the meeting but when you went into the meeting on the 25^th, you were quite confident that everything would happen on time?

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  I did not use the word “confident”.  What was raised to me at the Board meeting in July were concerns about the rate of progress we were making on the programme.  Therefore, there were increasing risks in the programme that required the Executive to go away and look at the consequences of it.  There were concerns raised then. 

Mike Brown MVO (Commissioner, Transport for London):  Sorry, Chairman.  If I may, through you, I just want to be clear.  I may have slightly mis‑whispered to the Chairman [of Crossrail Ltd.] because I was talking about the date of the TfL Board.  I think the Crossrail Board was just before that.  I just wanted to be clear, for the record.  Sir Terry will know when the date of the Crossrail Board was.  Apologies. 

Keith Prince AM:  Thank you, Mike.  We are all human.

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  Thank you, Mike.

Keith Prince AM:  I am after the date of the Board that you attended for Crossrail, please.

Simon Wright (Chief Executive Officer, Crossrail Ltd):  We would have to check it.  I do not keep all those dates in my head, I am afraid.

Keith Prince AM:  But it was before the 25th?

Tony Arbour AM (Chairman):  Is that not what you said, Mr Brown?

Mike Brown MVO (Commissioner, Transport for London):  Yes, I believe it was.  I believe it was before the 25th but I am sure we will find the date in a second for you.

Keith Prince AM:  Just so we can continue then while Simon does what he is doing ‑‑

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  Sorry, I have the date now.

Keith Prince AM:  Have you?

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  The Board meeting was on 19 July [2018].

Keith Prince AM:  19 July.  So on 19 July, after what you said, you are saying that you had grave concerns about the possibility of Crossrail opening on time.  Is that correct?

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  What I said was that there were significant schedule pressures coming on to the programme, but at that time when we had the Board meeting we had a programme that still supported the December opening that we had previously broadcast.

Keith Prince AM:  At the conclusion of that Board meeting you were confident that the rail line would open as planned in December?  Is that what you are saying?

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  I am very clear that the Executive raised concerns about the programme at the July Board meeting, which then made us decide we needed to do more work to review.

Keith Prince AM:  So, at the conclusion of that Board meeting then, were you of the opinion there was a likelihood there may be a delay?

Simon Wright (Chief Executive Officer, Crossrail Ltd):  I am a Board member as well, an Executive Board member ‑‑

Keith Prince AM:  The important point here is that Sir Terry answers the question.

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  I am very clear that there were unanswered questions at the Board meeting on 19 July that we needed to do more work on before we could conclude it, but when the Board meeting concluded we were still working against a programme that supported a December [2018] opening date.

Keith Prince AM:  You see, the reason I ask this question, Sir Terry, is that you and I and a number of Members of Parliament were at the meeting on 23 July, which we have now established was following a meeting where there were concerns expressed about the likelihood of the programme opening on time, and at that meeting ‑ I have spoken to Members of Parliament who attended that meeting ‑ you gave no indication whatsoever that there would be a delay.  Do you think that was the right thing to do, Sir Terry?

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  I think it was the right thing to do to get the Executive to conclude their work in a proper way, to actually conclude the decision about when could the Executive commit to ‑‑

Keith Prince AM:  I am a humble Assembly Member but when you are dealing with Members of Parliament do you not think that it is correct and proper to be honest with them and to make them aware of all the details and all the facts?  Would it not have been the proper thing to do, Sir Terry, to say to the Members present, “Look, we think it is going to happen but a few things have happened.  This is Europe’s largest engineering project and we expect that.  There is a possibility that there might be a delay”, and so on?  Do you not think, Sir Terry, that you should have made the Members of Parliament aware?  I have spoken with them and they are very surprised and disappointed that you had not given them that opportunity.

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  My opening statement said I was disappointed and sorry, but I will be very clear I was not dishonest.  The facts of what I said at the meeting were exactly where the Board meeting had concluded, which was that we were still working with a programme that supported the opening of stage 3 in December 2018.  I shared with those at the All‑Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) meeting concerns around the amount of work we still had to do and how challenging it was.  I was very open about that.

Keith Prince AM:  I purposely spoke to other Members at that meeting.  At no point were we left with the impression there was a possibility there would be a delay in the opening, Sir Terry. 

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  As I said, I ‑‑

Keith Prince AM:  You have to admit you did not.  You did not give any indication that there may be a delay.

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  I have said the plan ‑ which is absolutely true ‑ was still to support, at that time, an opening in December 2018.

Keith Prince AM:  You have already said, Sir Terry, that in your own mind you had doubts and that there was a possibility ‑‑

Sir Terry Morgan CBE (Chairman, Crossrail Ltd):  Which I stated.  I expressed concerns about the amount of work that still needed to be done.

Keith Prince AM:  I will leave it there.  Thank you.