Walking and cycling in outer London
TfL research has found that people who live in outer London tend to walk and cycle less than those who live in inner London. There are lots of reasons for this, and the London Assembly Transport Committee is currently looking at difficult junctions that put people off walking and cycling.
What do you think? Are there any particularly difficult junctions or crossings around you that make it difficult to walk and cycle? Are there things you want improved? Or have you noticed any recent changes that have made it either easier or more difficult for you to get around?
The discussion ran from 17 July 2017 - 01 May 2018
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Community Member 7 years agohave given up riding my bike in outer London vehicles tend to drive a lot faster than central London and seem to want pass you as close as possible.
Show full commentSo use my bus pass instead. Also the conditions of the roads are dangerous with pot holes...
have given up riding my bike in outer London vehicles tend to drive a lot faster than central London and seem to want pass you as close as possible.
Show less of commentSo use my bus pass instead. Also the conditions of the roads are dangerous with pot holes every where.
hundchen
Community Member 7 years agoI used to cycle regularly to work, some 14 miles each way from outer London to central London. I avoided dangerous junctions, where possible, but was never too worried by the traffic as it was fairly slow and reasonably well behaved on the...
Show full commentI used to cycle regularly to work, some 14 miles each way from outer London to central London. I avoided dangerous junctions, where possible, but was never too worried by the traffic as it was fairly slow and reasonably well behaved on the main roads.
In 2003 I retired and started cycling occasionally across outer London. I found it very scary as the traffic was faster and overtook very close. People also get very aggressive if you "hold the road" at pinch points.
I was off my bike for about 9 months following a road traffic accident on my bike in Spain. As I started to recover, I initially drove the route I had formerly cycled (Barnet/Enfield borders to Borehamwood to go swimming and shopping). As a driver, I saw there were hardly any cyclists on my route and, when you did meet a cyclist, it took a long time before you could overtake safely. I therefore decided that returning to suburban cycling was too dangerous.
Show less of commentbaijie1989
Community Member 7 years agoI walk a lot and in good weather walk rather than use public transport
However, I almost never use my bike because I just don't find cycling on the road safe enough. The provision of cycling routes that are completely separate from the...
Show full commentI walk a lot and in good weather walk rather than use public transport
However, I almost never use my bike because I just don't find cycling on the road safe enough. The provision of cycling routes that are completely separate from the road would encourage me to cycle more.
I don't drive a car myself, but will go in the car with other people.
Show less of commentRMH
Community Member 7 years agoI would like to cycle part of the journey to work regularly. To do this I would need to be able to cycle to a local station, be confident that Southern will be running a train and that Southern will run a train in the evening to get me home...
Show full commentI would like to cycle part of the journey to work regularly. To do this I would need to be able to cycle to a local station, be confident that Southern will be running a train and that Southern will run a train in the evening to get me home. Unfortunately, I have two choices. I can use a major train line, then cycle the remainder of the way but that means cycling through a really busy area with many buses, a massive roundabout and one way system and a huge intersection. I'm not confident enough and it feels almost suicidal. Alternatively, I can use a quieter cycle route which means using a smaller local trainline. I would be happy to do so but Southern cancel the entire train route with no notice for weeks at a time. They started cancelling the entire train line long before the strikes started. If you want to get people cycling to work, you need to make the roads safer and you need to have train companies that can be relied upon to run trains as advertised, on the local London lines not just on the mainlines.
Show less of commentAnonymous - account deleted
Community Member 7 years agoreally? where do they live? I live in car friendly Barnet, and there are no safe places for a cyclist to ride, on or off road, the local authority even got rid of the only (one that I know of) cycling lane around the Grahame Park estate....
Show full commentreally? where do they live? I live in car friendly Barnet, and there are no safe places for a cyclist to ride, on or off road, the local authority even got rid of the only (one that I know of) cycling lane around the Grahame Park estate. Colindale where I live, is the largest redeveloped site in the whole of the EU (think i read that somewhere) but instead of providing cycle lanes, we are getting more cars and less roads. Interested to hear your views.....oh and i don't drive but use public transport
Show less of commentSomeone
Community Member 7 years agoInk 1402, Barnet is indeed primitive in its approach to transport. There are a few off road tracks that are pleasant for cycling and walking, but they aren't joined up, cannot be reached safely and don't go anywhere in particular, so are of...
Show full commentInk 1402, Barnet is indeed primitive in its approach to transport. There are a few off road tracks that are pleasant for cycling and walking, but they aren't joined up, cannot be reached safely and don't go anywhere in particular, so are of little practical use.
Show less of commentAnonymous - account deleted
Community Member 7 years agoI Live on the A316 near North Sheen / Mortlake cemetery.
Show full commentI am retired so leisure cycle - time is rarely an issue
I was surprised how far I could cycle using back streets, pavement & other cycleways, parks, etc.
My routes have to be as my...
I Live on the A316 near North Sheen / Mortlake cemetery.
Show less of commentI am retired so leisure cycle - time is rarely an issue
I was surprised how far I could cycle using back streets, pavement & other cycleways, parks, etc.
My routes have to be as my partner will not cycle on main roads.
I can cycle on the path just outside and on paths or via cemetery and back streets to the Thames or footpath towards Richmond (back streets to Kew).
OK Manor Road is quite busy and a short bit of Sheen Road but then off road in Sheen Common, Richmond Park.
Did a circular route that took in Sheen Common, Richmond Park, Hospital at Roehampton (Queen Mary's I think) Putney Heath, Wimbledon Common, back into Richmond Park - can go out via Ham to Thames.
Across Kew Bridge bit of back street / main road to Grand Union Canal - then off road for miles.
Along Thames from Chiswick Bridge - either side of the Thames to Putney - tow paths, parks, back streets, detour to Chiswick House,
On to Battersea Park.
Or at Wandsworth - to Morden Hall and beyond (walked a bit of busy road).
Thames to Teddington/Kingston - and beyond on river towpath or pop into Bushy Park just over Kingston Bridge.
Twickenham - River Crane to Hounslow Heath and apparently beyond.
and more.
Good OS map helps or check routes on streetmap
cnicol
Community Member 7 years agoI cycle regularly, prioritising lower pollution routes over quick routes. Useful to have signage of routes that arenºt polluted, including shared pedestrian - cycle routes through parks, and on wider pavements next to main roads. Would...
Show full commentI cycle regularly, prioritising lower pollution routes over quick routes. Useful to have signage of routes that arenºt polluted, including shared pedestrian - cycle routes through parks, and on wider pavements next to main roads. Would be helpful to allow 2 way usage of 1 way streets (i.e. have ºexcept cyclesª under the No Entry sign) where appropriate.
Show less of commentAnonymous - account deleted
Community Member 7 years agoMy wife only needs a couple of cars to pass too closely at 40 mph (many drivers seem to think +10% = +10 mph) or faster on her little-used bike and she is put off cycling for another few years. I also worry for my teenage daughter. She is...
Show full commentMy wife only needs a couple of cars to pass too closely at 40 mph (many drivers seem to think +10% = +10 mph) or faster on her little-used bike and she is put off cycling for another few years. I also worry for my teenage daughter. She is careful and I've taught her survival tricks, but to make any meaningful journey, you have to cross, or worse still, go along busy main roads, often too narrow for cycle + fast moving motor and commercial traffic, much of it exceeding the 30 mph limit.
What's happened to the Twenty's Plenty campaign? At 20 mph a car or van becomes much less lethal. The driver has a lot more thinking time to avoid a collision, and if there is a collision with a cyclist or pedestrian at 20 mph (or slower, presuming some braking has occurred) then fatalities become considerably less likely than at 30-40 mph, and injuries less severe.
20 mph should apply to all London back streets 24/7, but it could also apply on all but arterial routes during the rush hours, when most accidents happen, say 7:30-9:30 and 16:30-18:30. The average speed across London is something ridiculously Edwardian like 10 mph, so a 20 limit it should not impact that; Indeed it might improve it, as nothing brings swathes of London to a grinding halt better than a bad accident at a junction. If there were fewer accident-produced gridlocks, the average speed would improve.
Show less of commentphiljer
Community Member 7 years agoI would say that there are also many junctions and crossings in inner London where it is difficult to use them as a pedestrian as well.
The odd time with some crossings such as Goswell Road/Old Street it can be due to the poor timing of...
Show full commentI would say that there are also many junctions and crossings in inner London where it is difficult to use them as a pedestrian as well.
The odd time with some crossings such as Goswell Road/Old Street it can be due to the poor timing of the lights, which mean motor vehicles are still leaving the crossroads even though they entered on green or amber.
More of a problem however is the number of cyclists going through red lights and not respecting pedestrian crossings. So it means even when green man lit still have to watch out for cyclists speeding through.
Lot of street furniture on pavements also causes problems walking, particularly when road works and of course cyclists going on pavements even when cycle lane right next to the pavement available for use, this often happens with the hire bikes.
Recently Bank junction use restricted so other roads nearby more busy, but no thought applied to add pedestrian crossings on them, such as Gresham Street.
The junction between Gresham Street and St Martins Le Grand has been bad ever since from daft raised road part replaced a proper junction, which is absolutely useless for pedestrians, who now need to be able to swivel their head like an owl when crossing. No road vehicle or cyclist gives way to pedestrians wanting to cross.
Show less of commentross01
Community Member 7 years agoMorden Road (A24), northbound, where the road turns right on to Merantun Way, is dreadful for cyclists. The carriageway opens up to 5 lanes northbound and cyclists have to cross to lane 4 to turn right. One has to have courage to do this...
Show full commentMorden Road (A24), northbound, where the road turns right on to Merantun Way, is dreadful for cyclists. The carriageway opens up to 5 lanes northbound and cyclists have to cross to lane 4 to turn right. One has to have courage to do this. There is no way I would allow a child to cycle along this section of road.
Show less of commentExamples of recently created but badly thought out cycle lanes are:
1. High Street Colliers Wood (A24), southbound, at the Christchurch Road junction. Traffic turning left crosses the straight on cycle lane however when left turning traffic is queuing, it invariably sits across the cycle lane. While I accept this is primarily due to absence of consideration by drivers, TfL could help instil considerate driving by at least having a sign up which tells drivers to not block the lane.
2. On Christchurch Road, there has been significant changes to the road recently. This is a busy main road yet no cycle lanes were installed as part of the recent restructuring. This is despite the pavements being wide. In fact, the already wide pavements were made even wider so now the carriageway lanes are only of standard width, forcing bicycles to share the lane with all of the heavy traffic on this arterial A road. It is infuriating that no common sense seems to be employed. Two metres' wide cycle lanes could have been additionally incorporated on to the carriageway, while leaving a wide pavement for pedestrians. Similarly, on the northbound section of this road between Merantun Way and the new junction, there is only one, standard width lane for all traffic. It would be sensible to widen the carriageway to include a 2 metres wide cycle lane, or even a little wider and have a 24/7 bus lane instead. This would mean taking some of the grassey area to the side of the pavement but as this grassy area is simply the back of the shopping centre, the loss of a small section of grass would be more than jusitifed if it resulted in a proper cycle lane or bus lane.
Anonymous - account deleted
Community Member 7 years agoI live in Tulse Hill in Southwark. I guess that's outer rather than inner London. For the last three years I have pretty much cycled everywhere in London I have needed to and I'm proud and pleased to do so but the experience is...
Show full commentI live in Tulse Hill in Southwark. I guess that's outer rather than inner London. For the last three years I have pretty much cycled everywhere in London I have needed to and I'm proud and pleased to do so but the experience is undoubtedly scary and challenging in ways that are completely avoidable. Just recently my 23 year old daughter (I'm 60) has decided she wants to start cycling everywhere so I've been showing her routes to the Globe, the South Bank complex, to the Tate Britain and to the BM and UCL, all foci in her world. It's been useful to me to see how a very brave and fit, but very risk avoidant, 23 year sees things and it's strengthened my disgust with London, particularly "outer London" cycling provision. It's almost all tokenistic or very, very limited. Quick fixes would be (1) double the number of good secure bike parking, starting with simple Sheffield stands; (2) start enforcing laws on dangerous motor vehicle behaviour at junctions and put pressure on magistrates to reverse the trend on not banning motorists who offend repeatedly; (3) make sure all cycle routes connect and are signposted at least as well as motor traffic is signposted, my experience is that most assumes that you know where "CS7" will take you - being told the you are on the M25 goes with being told where each junction will take you; (4) when you put in crash barriers, encroach on motor space not cycling space (the new barriers on Blackfriars Bridge do this, the ones on Waterloo Bridge do the reverse; (5) ensure every cycle "super(not)highway" and cycle track has continuity and direction signing at each junction with a quietway; (6) fix the complete mess of the cycle lanes coming north into Vauxhall: that's the most dangerous and absurd route my daughter is facing, I've cycled all my life and just blitz through with the motor traffic and a bit of chutzpah, she rightly recognises that the route is seriously dangerous with no good clear options for pushbikes ...
Show less of commentTalk London
Official Representative 7 years agoThanks everyone for your contributions to this discussion.
For those of you with additional mobility needs, such as disabilities, visual impairments, wheelchairs and buggies:
What should be in place to support your needs? Are there any particular types of road feature that are difficult for you to navigate? Have any recent changes to roads or crossings affected your ability to get around?
Greg Tingey
Community Member 7 years agoRemove ALL "speed bumps" ( Or certainly all full-width ones) on Bus routes.
Show full commentThose in wheelchairs, or with back, neck or abdominal problems, such as pregnant, hernia, recent lower-body operation ( e.g. appendix ) suffer very badly every time...
Remove ALL "speed bumps" ( Or certainly all full-width ones) on Bus routes.
Show less of commentThose in wheelchairs, or with back, neck or abdominal problems, such as pregnant, hernia, recent lower-body operation ( e.g. appendix ) suffer very badly every time any bus goes over a speed hump.
Very unclever.
Guess how I found out?
Groovygranny65
Community Member 7 years agoAs a wheelchair user I find it very difficult to get about as the footpaths are too rough lots of pot holes the same with the roads far too many pot holes, dropped kerbs are also a problem I can ride for quite a long way only yo find that I...
Show full commentAs a wheelchair user I find it very difficult to get about as the footpaths are too rough lots of pot holes the same with the roads far too many pot holes, dropped kerbs are also a problem I can ride for quite a long way only yo find that I cannot get off the footpath as there is no dropped kerb or if there is it is still too high to get the chair down which means I am stuck in doors for a majority of the time.
Show less of commentAnother reason for not going to the parks as much as I would like is the irresponsible dog owners that do not pick up after their animals there is also a problem with cats and foxes
LondonREC
Community Member 7 years agoWe live near Charlie Brown's Roundabout and the North Circular, and it is awful for both walking and cycling. There are no pleasant and safe walking or cycling routes in the area, and even our relatively quiet residential street is used by...
Show full commentWe live near Charlie Brown's Roundabout and the North Circular, and it is awful for both walking and cycling. There are no pleasant and safe walking or cycling routes in the area, and even our relatively quiet residential street is used by many drivers as a shortcut to the roundabout/motorway, often speeding as they do so.
When we lived in central London (Islington), my husband used to cycle to work, but I'd be very reluctant for him to do so now. As another person commented, we now rely heavily on our car, so we are just adding to the congestion, noise and pollution. Bit of a vicious circle!
Show less of commentAnonymous - account deleted
Community Member 7 years agoIt should be in outer London that cycling and walking can be encouraged, but so little has been done. Boroughs may need guidance on good practice, and TfL should be able to help more. But is their political will at GLA to drive forward...
Show full commentIt should be in outer London that cycling and walking can be encouraged, but so little has been done. Boroughs may need guidance on good practice, and TfL should be able to help more. But is their political will at GLA to drive forward changes? More priority for pedestrians and cyclists particularly to cross heavy traffic flows, good scheme design, both are needed and would help. And stop pavement parking, a real hazard for pavement users, too please>
Show less of commentLee_Enfield
Community Member 7 years agoRegarding further the imposed cycle lane along the A105: Enfield - Palmers Green:
This A105 cycle lane scheme was not welcomed by many residents in the area and the Council allowed folks with vested interests to vote where in many cases...
Show full commentRegarding further the imposed cycle lane along the A105: Enfield - Palmers Green:
This A105 cycle lane scheme was not welcomed by many residents in the area and the Council allowed folks with vested interests to vote where in many cases, those folks did not even live in the Enfield area.
During the rush hour periods, the A105 becomes congested both north and south bound, thus making it difficult for an emergency service vehicle to pass through - emergency services have voiced their concerns, which have been over-ridden by the Council.
I think it is a tragedy that around £42M of taxpayer money has been wasted in this way, with acute housing shortages and other measures of austerity being applied. How on Earth can these cycle lanes have been given any sort of priority?
Part 2 Post...
Show less of commentPsiMonk
Community Member 7 years agoAll of the evidence (there's a big Dft study on this for instance) is that in terms of spending on transport, spending on cycling recoups most to the public purse in terms of savings to the NHS etc. So spending on cycle tracks is by far the...
Show full commentAll of the evidence (there's a big Dft study on this for instance) is that in terms of spending on transport, spending on cycling recoups most to the public purse in terms of savings to the NHS etc. So spending on cycle tracks is by far the best way TfL and the DfT can spend its money.
Show less of commentLee_Enfield
Community Member 7 years agoHello PsiMonk:
I'm sure what you state is true - but only if the cycle tracks are used. It is admittedly early days yet, as the complete track from Palmers Green - Enfield is not yet 100% complete, but I rather suspect that not many...
Show full commentHello PsiMonk:
I'm sure what you state is true - but only if the cycle tracks are used. It is admittedly early days yet, as the complete track from Palmers Green - Enfield is not yet 100% complete, but I rather suspect that not many cyclists will use the track to justify the expense - there are few cyclists to be seen now as it is, specially during the day. Time will tell of course....
Show less of commentLee_Enfield
Community Member 7 years agoI like to cycle through Enfield back streets to Hillyfields and to Forty Hall, where we are blessed with pretty much open countryside. I also like to cycle along the Lee Valley canal both north and south, but we usually drive to Enfield...
Show full commentI like to cycle through Enfield back streets to Hillyfields and to Forty Hall, where we are blessed with pretty much open countryside. I also like to cycle along the Lee Valley canal both north and south, but we usually drive to Enfield Lock first, then get our fold-up bikes out of the car boot and cycle.
One local problem is that Enfield Council are implementing a cycle lane along the A105 from Enfield - Palmers Green and this is causing a lot of local aggravation.
One of the many problems with the imposed cycle lanes along the A105 is that whenever a bus stops around the rush hour periods, then all the traffic behind the bus also stops, thus increasing air pollution. Away from the rush hour periods, cars do try and overtake a stopped bus, but that can be dangerous as cars are coming the other way. Apart from rush hour periods, the A105 can also become congested when the nearby M25 has a problem, which is frequently the case.
Enfield Council are trying to encourage more folk to cycle, which of course is a goodly thing, but I do not see that these cycle lanes are a good way of doing that. I sometimes cycle, but would not dream of cycling along the main road - much better to cycle in the side streets which are quieter and often provide a quicker route.
Another problem with the A105 cycle lane scheme is business delivery vehicles having nowhere easily available to park and businesses subsequently closing down, thus going against the regeneration aspect of the Council.
It is early days yet of course, but I am an Enfield resident and frequently take a bus along the A105 and have seen very few cyclists using the cycle lanes stretches that are available.
Extra speed bumps have appeared for no great reason, which have slowed down busses, thus adding even further to the air pollution and journey times. The bus companies do not like this cycle lane scheme, but since it has been part funded by TFL, they cannot say too much publicly.
Part 1 of Post...
Show less of commentPsiMonk
Community Member 7 years agoA few points here:
1. I think you've mistaken the potential for cycling as a leisure activity ("I like to cycle through Enfield back streets to Hillyfields and to Forty Hall... usually drive to Enfield Lock first, then get our fold-up...
Show full commentA few points here:
1. I think you've mistaken the potential for cycling as a leisure activity ("I like to cycle through Enfield back streets to Hillyfields and to Forty Hall... usually drive to Enfield Lock first, then get our fold-up bikes out of the car boot and cycle") with cycling as a mainstream transport mode, as the Dutch have. The aim is for you (and lots of other people) to be able to ride not just to leisure amenities, but also to work, to the shops, to the station. That's what Enfield's mini-Holland schemes are about.
2. The idea that buses stopping general traffic for a moment causes pollution and danger has been thoroughly debunked elsewhere. And again, building everything for the convenience of drivers has not worked well for us. We need to build for the convenience of pedestrians, those cycling and those using public transport.
3. The idea it's OK for the A105 for an overflow for the M25 is exactly what is wrong here.
4. All the evidence is with physically separated cycle tracks will enable lots more people to cycle to and along main roads. All of the evidence is forcing people to cycle circuitous backstreet routes does not get us from the current 0.7% modal share in Enfield to mainstream levels of cycling.
5. The idea that Enfield builds cycle tracks that will instantly be filled is also a bit silly.
Show less of commentLee_Enfield
Community Member 7 years agoDear PsiMonk
I agree with you that the idea that Enfield's new cycle tracks will instantly be filled is a bit silly - that's why I did not state that.
Well, only time will tell if this cycle lane has been worth the money - it is a new...
Show full commentDear PsiMonk
I agree with you that the idea that Enfield's new cycle tracks will instantly be filled is a bit silly - that's why I did not state that.
Well, only time will tell if this cycle lane has been worth the money - it is a new venture for this area but there have already been a number of accidents because of it, including people tripping over the orcas that separate the road from the cycle lane. There might also be a problem in winter, when snow covers the orcas.
I do not think that people cycle circuitous backstreet routes - it all depends where they start from and want to go. The main road may not be the best way of getting somewhere for many cyclists. Even with a cycle lane, who on earth wants to travel next to vehicles on a main road when you can cycle along quiet back roads?
Many of us older folk prefer the bus to get places from time to time, but the bus lanes have been removed from the A105 - not exactly the best idea in the World, I would have thought.
Show less of commentjimmuswell
Community Member 7 years agoI live in Outer London, and walk/cycle far more near home than I do when in the centre of town
bovinemoo
Community Member 7 years agoFor me its a simple issue of the weather. I wear glasses and have extremely poor eyesight. When it rains, which is often, I cannot see where I am going. At the moment during the Summer I am walking everywhere as it is mainly dry and warm...
Show full commentFor me its a simple issue of the weather. I wear glasses and have extremely poor eyesight. When it rains, which is often, I cannot see where I am going. At the moment during the Summer I am walking everywhere as it is mainly dry and warm. This will tail off as the weather worsens. Cruelly my health has taken a hit due to all the extra traffic pollution I am currently breathing in.
Show less of commentpukpuk
Community Member 7 years agoHave your tried wearing an umbrella?
bovinemoo
Community Member 7 years agoUnfortunately I have severe arthritis in both hands and wrists which rules out carrying an umbrella, otherwise it's a sound idea.
Show full commentUnfortunately I have severe arthritis in both hands and wrists which rules out carrying an umbrella, otherwise it's a sound idea.
Show less of commentCJAnn
Community Member 7 years agoGetting from the Walthamstow Overground stop on the GOSPEL OAK-BARKING line to the Walthamstow Overground stop on the CHINGFORD-LIVERPOOL street stop. Tfl does not have clear signage if tapping out and then tapping back in is necessary. It...
Show full commentGetting from the Walthamstow Overground stop on the GOSPEL OAK-BARKING line to the Walthamstow Overground stop on the CHINGFORD-LIVERPOOL street stop. Tfl does not have clear signage if tapping out and then tapping back in is necessary. It would also be great if we could take bicycles on more public transport options so that we do not have to do entire journeys completely by bicycle if they are long.
Show less of comment