Change in Governance Arrangements

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience):  As I said in my opening statement, the new governance framework does feel like a different way of working.  I feel - and I do not want to speak for Dany [Cotton QFSM] but I know she feels - that our roles have changed much more than we could have imagined when we discussed what we thought the new governance arrangements would be and how they would work.

What internally some people felt was that it would remove some of the decision-making processes and it has removed all the committees that we had under LFEPA, but what we have made sure we have done is that we have a very clear and formal way of making decisions, monitoring those decisions and making sure they are scrutinised and challenged both by senior staff and the Commissioner and then by myself at the Deputy Mayor’s Fire and Resilience Board.  We have our next meeting this afternoon.  It has been a process and it has gone well.

Respectively, if we had anticipated exactly what our roles were going to be we might have some things in place a bit more at the beginning, but we are getting there.  Some of the comments made by Assembly Member Dismore about the comments from firefighters about the Commissioner have translated into much more positive industrial relations.  Where unions have raised issues about some of the decision-making and not having access in the same way that they had to LFEPA committees, that relationship of trust with both the Commissioner and I would hope with me as well has meant that we have been able to iron out issues as we have gone along in a consultative and collaborative way rather than people feeling that the access through the formal processes through LFEPA going meant that they did not have access, if that makes sense.

I meet regularly with the Commissioner and the Deputies and Sue Budden as Director [of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade] to receive regular updates outside that formal meeting process, and actually quite a lot of the larger decisions that are made by the Commissioner and the team do not just have to be signed off by me but have to be signed off here by the Corporate Investment Board.  There is challenge there.  The staff involved in managing that process with the Corporate Investment Board here [at the GLA] have said that they get a lot of questions back about some of the decisions they are asking for sign-off on and so you do not just get a tick box.

It is different.  It is something that the Brigade is reviewing to make sure that we have the right approach to the new governance arrangements.  That review is due to complete in the new year led by Steven Adams [Chief of Staff, National Fire Chiefs Council], whom you probably know, and he will be looking at how we have performed under the new governance arrangements and what we need to tweak further to make sure we have those robust decision-making processes, that we have challenge internally and that we engage effectively with the Committee and with Assembly Members here to make sure that the removal of the Fire Authority does not lead to less effective scrutiny.

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  Equally from my point of view, it has been very different and far more different than I anticipated it would be.  For me, one of the things that I was very concerned about is ensuring that the levels of scrutiny and rigour through every decision-making process have not lost any ability by the fact that I am not being externally challenged by the previous [LFEPA] Resources Committee, for instance, where you get that absolute challenge backwards and forwards.  I feel that that was something I was very concerned about for myself being the person who was ultimately signing decisions to make sure I have that.  We did a large internal restructure and, in the way we work, the directorate management boards are far more robust processes now as decisions come up with the way that they are challenged and scrutinised at that level, the pushback before they come into the Commissioner’s Board for consideration, and the challenge that I provide to officers presenting papers to me at those boards.

I also challenge my team on issues around publication and not losing any of the transparency that we had previously.  In fact, I have pushed back several times when people have said, “Do we really need to keep doing this?”  Yes, we absolutely do.  My undertaking and my promise was that there would be no less information published or shared with people to allow people to be able to scrutinise the work we do.  That has been a very important part for me.

As Fiona has said, we are undertaking the six-month review that we said we would do to look at how we are getting on.  That is taking place at the moment and we have also had my internal audit team have a look at the governance process as well.  I have asked them very early on to look at those and to report back to me on how they feel we are progressing.  It is very important that I have somebody else come in and do those checks and balances to ensure the processes are right.

For people who thought it was going to be easier and going to be a more simplified process, it is not.  It has provided as much challenge or more so than we thought it would, but we are learning all the time.  A lot of it was discovered as we have gone along, but I am very pleased with the way it is progressing so far.

Susan Hall AM:  I am glad to hear about the transparency because that was certainly a cross-party concern that we had.  One of the things is, given all the different committees, we used to pick up issues and realise if there was something going wrong.  Now we only have that the one committee.  I am concerned that we might not be able to pick things up because we can always ask questions about what you do not know is going on.  If there is a real issue, how will that be brought to our attention, as opposed to being dealt with internally and we will not have any view of it?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience):  I would like to think that we would come to - obviously you are Chairman at the moment - you as Chairman and flag a major issue, if it were of such concern that we felt it was something that the Assembly should know about in the same way that the Committees would have known about in the past.  We would just need to keep that dialogue open.  We need to make sure that we do go into depth in all the details in the Committees - obviously they are public forums - but that we also flag issues of concern and make sure that you get the opportunity to meet senior staff on a one-to-one basis as well to talk through what they are working on and give you that insight that you might have got through [LFEPA] Committee papers but that probably does not present through the quarterly reports that we have been sending the [Assembly’s Fire, Resilience and Emergency Planning] Committee. 

Following our discussion earlier this week, I have suggested to the Commissioner that we set up a meeting for you as Chairman to go in and talk to senior staff and the Assistant Commissioners, just so that you get that opportunity to talk to them at some point in the new year, when your diary permits. 

Susan Hall AM:  OK, thank you.  You mentioned the unions, Fiona.  I know the unions are concerned.  They are unclear as to when the meetings are, although I pointed out that it is all published.  In the days gone by, they used to be able to come and address the Committees, etc, and I think they are concerned that they cannot do that anymore.  Is there any way we could all look at how we could address that?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience):  Yes.  This is something that we have heard and it has been helpful to have good relations with the unions when we have been discussing how to address this.  It was a theme that came through quite a lot of the unions.  I have regular meetings with the unions in line with how the Mayor meets the TfL unions.  We have also set up meetings for them to meet the Mayor.  It is something that came up at that.

What we have agreed is that the trade unions will be given the agenda and the papers for the meetings I have with the Commissioner and the senior staff.  We have had some issues over the timing of those because we are trying to get everything bedded down and work pressures, but we are getting into a system whereby we can give them enough notice of that that they can come along and speak.  The Fire Brigades Union (FBU) is coming to talk about budget pressures at the meeting we are having this afternoon.  I hope we can resolve some of those concerns. 

It has been helpful that we have done it from a position that we have good relations with the trade unions.  If people had any suspicion that it was intentional somehow - which obviously it is not - it could have caused problems.  If we were to look back and say, “What could we have done better from the outset?” it would have been to formalise that bit a bit sooner, but we are getting there now.  Hopefully, when we come into the new year and we have had the review of how things have gone, we will make sure that that it is much more streamlined and that the representative bodies get access to information and the opportunity to talk to the issues that we are discussing and making decisions on in a proper and structured way.

Susan Hall AM:  Lovely.  Thank you.  Under the Police and Crime Act, London Fire Brigade has the duty to collaborate across the blue-light services.  Can you give me some examples of how you are doing that? 

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner): I meet regularly with the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis and the Head of the London Ambulance Service (LAS) at a very strategic level to discuss blue-light partnership and collaboration.  There is a blue light collaboration team that London Fire Brigade hosts.  That has representatives from both blue lights parties that work out of London Fire Brigade headquarters.  We regularly have meetings to discuss where there are opportunities, not just in the obvious opportunity of things like sharing property or procurement opportunities, but the wider blue light partnership, how we can work together.  We have been working very closely with the police on the funding they secured around control rooms and then looking at opportunities of how that could be used, how we could have some sense of having a central point when there is some sort of major emergency, where the blue lights are hosted together so that we ensure we are sharing information in a timely fashion. 

We have all been very clear that it is not just about financial savings.  It is about efficiency of our work together and about development together for the future.  Obviously, we want to make sure that what we are doing has a purpose and meaning to it.  For me, the collaboration piece is also about collaborating with other fire and rescue services, so I am very pleased to say the personal protective equipment (PPE) we procured was part of the national procurement process.  The fire escape hoods we did in partnership with Kent Fire and Rescue Service.  When the electric fire engine recently came into the country - Surrey Fire and Rescue Service has it - they invited us to come down and have a look at it with them.  It is also for me about the partnership working with other members of the GLA and about how we can look at whether there are opportunities to share, to learn and to work together.  For me, the collaboration piece is very widespread across all different sectors, but for the right reasons and ensuring that it really does not only deliver value for money but a better service for the people of London.

Susan Hall AM:  The London Safety Plan also speaks about sharing infrastructure.  You have just touched on that, but can you tell us more about where we are looking to share infrastructure?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  Yes.  We are looking not only at high-level projects but if we are looking at any redesign of any premises or any opportunities.  Our headquarters are a classic example of that.  We have another five sets of residents in our headquarters sharing the property space with us there. 

It is also about local community initiatives.  At Stratford we have a LAS first-response bike team in there.  We have worked with Safer Neighbourhood partnership communities as well.  For me, it is about the range from local Borough Commanders taking the opportunity to work in partnership with other agencies in their boroughs, to the wider piece about how we can share estate, and if we are looking to redevelop any estate, whether there is opportunity to go into partnership.  We have sites already where LAS and London Fire Brigade share one site together. 

The benefits from those that we realise, especially around training opportunities and around knowledge of each other’s work, are immense.  When I talk to my teams that have been doing work around responding to changing protocols for dealing with people who have been involved in road traffic collisions, for instance.  The LAS changed some of its protocols around the speed with which it likes people extricated.  It had not been shared as widely as possible.  Where it has had the partnership working, it means that fire crews understand what the LAS wants and can work in partnership together quickly without people saying, “Has something changed?” 

Some of those partnerships we have built on have come to a great realisation recently around the acid attacks that we have been dealing with and the work we have been doing with Stagecoach and with various other companies, where we, as London Fire Brigade, have been training people on how to respond and how to deal with people who have been victims of acid attacks.  That has had a wide-ranging reach.  It started off as a local initiative in east London from a fire station that had attended several acid attacks.  They proactively wanted to be able to help other people in their community to understand what to do.  It has now become an initiative that has been launched across London.  I am really proud of homegrown initiatives like that that are local firefighters seeing risk and seeing how they can address it.

Susan Hall AM:  Yes.  I am a massive supporter of all these initiatives, and Stratford proves how well it works.  We have been talking about this for a long, long while because it does make sense for more and more of our blue light services to work together.  Is there any strategy going forward for a timeline where we will be looking at getting more Safer Neighbourhood Teams into our buildings?  There is the room in some of the fire stations.  If we specifically look at fire stations, have you had any pushback from anybody that it should not happen, or do you have a timeline where you are looking to have more co-hosting?  The police, for example.

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  The timeline we work on is constantly working in partnership about how we can use spaces.  Obviously, as part of our opening up fire stations, we are looking at the spaces available to be used not only by the police but by other community partners, which is a very important resource for us to be able to attract different areas of the community in to the fire station so that we then have those contacts with them.  If there are concerns raised, then our approach is to be able to have conversations with people to deal with issues, to have grownup conversations about what we want to work in partnership with and what the end goal is and what we want to achieve. 

What we want to try to dispel is where people have issues and do some myth-busting around, “We are all trying to join up and become one blue-light service.  We are all going to be doing each other’s jobs”.  I know there has been speculation around that because in different parts of the country they do have community responders that do all three blue light services.  That is not the aim for London.  The aim for London is about us working in partnership to ensure the safety of the people in our communities and especially identifying vulnerable people.  We can only do that if we work together and share information. 

Susan Hall AM:  Yes, I agree.  You have got no pushback from anybody about different blue light services coming into, for instance, our stations?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  There have been concerns raised by some of the unions, if we are seen to be working in close partnership with other blue light services, that we might not be viewed as being safe people by members of other communities, that people potentially might see that we are not trusted partners anymore.  Where we are talking about having Safer Neighbourhood Community Teams, that is about us working in partnership together to work to identify those vulnerable people.  When we are having those conversations, explaining the work we are trying to do, then people understand that.

Susan Hall AM:  Of course.  Do you have issues regarding having police officers in the fire stations?  Do you share those views of the unions?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  I want to make sure that we do not lose any of the current faith and trust that the communities of London have in London Fire Brigade, and we know that they place great trust in us.  We know that when we knock on front doors to visit people, to do community safety visits, to impart our fire safety information, people welcome us going into their houses.  I do not want to do anything that would damage that trust, that would not allow us to access vulnerable people, because we are predominantly the main people who can get that access and make those risk assessments for people.  If we work in partnership, if we explain what we are doing, it is for me about communication and talking about reasons why.  This is not about us posting teams of armed officers or something like that in our fire stations.  This is about neighbourhood engagement and keeping people safe in communities. 

Susan Hall AM:  Yes.  I was mainly talking about Safer Neighbourhood Teams.  OK.  We will watch that, obviously, as the time goes by.  Thank you.

If I can talk to you about equipment now, what is the latest position on the mobilisation system provided by Capita?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  Thank you very much.  I welcome the fact that you took the time yesterday to visit the control centre at Merton.  It was very well received, and the offer, genuine as ever, is always out there.  If anyone wants to visit any of the fire stations, our mobilising centre or anywhere else, we really, genuinely welcome visits by Assembly Members.  Not only does it give a wider understanding of the work that you do and they do, but people like the fact that people have taken the time to be interested in their jobs, so thank you for that.

As you will know from your visit yesterday, there are still some very specific issues around font size, which some people are concerned about.  There is a new upload which we are hoping will come in in March [2019], which will resolve that issue, but Vision continues to improve attendance times and improve mobilisation, and it is working well.

Susan Hall AM:  Yes, I will congratulate you on some of the attendance times there.  They are looking good.  What timescale is there for finally resolving it, or do you think it will be by March [2019]?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  The new upload.  Obviously, with any computer-based system, there will be modifications and developments that will keep going on.  We have a very close relationship.  There is a board that sits to discuss and resolve issues, which Tom George [Deputy Commissioner, London Fire Brigade] sits on, and meets closely with partners from Capita so that if there are issues we can escalate them very quickly and ensure they are dealt with.  It is something that will be subject to ongoing review, as any process would be, and ongoing development as new products come on the market.

Susan Hall AM:  How much have all these improvements cost the Brigade?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  They are part of the package we bought when we bought Vision, so they are subject to the costs.  I do not have the detail of that.  We maybe can find that.

Susan Hall AM:  OK.  One day we will stop talking about Capita in here.

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  I hope so. 

Susan Hall AM:  Yes.  One day in the far-distant future, no doubt.  Have you altered the way you procure systems of this scale as a result of the numerous problems we have had with this system?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  With something that is as niche as a mobilising system and that is not an off-the-shelf product and is not something that is used widely by other organisations - obviously blue light partners do use systems - the problem is that sometimes it can work in a smaller fire and rescue and/or police service, but the scale of London and the volume of calls and the variety of different incidents we attend compared to also the variety of different structures in London means that it is always going to be a challenge.  However, we are already looking at how we would procure the next system.  We are planning it well in advance for the next replacement and we will constantly look at developments in the market to see what the best product is.  It is a learning process and it is always going to be very difficult.

Susan Hall AM:  OK.  Staying with procurement if I may, the new uniforms.  I do understand why they are gold, and I was one of the ones who was commenting on the colour of the things.  If we are looking at the equipment, which the staff seem to like, I was at Wembley Fire Station recently and discovered that the gloves are very, very slippery when they are used.  Clearly, for a firefighter, that is a nightmare.  Can you tell me what is happening with that?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  Yes.  Because they are very new, as with any new leather glove you buy, for the first couple of times you use them they are slippery.  We have given advice to firefighters and recommendations on how to wear them and wash them to start off with to remove that slippery factor.  It is purely a product of them being a very new product and the first couple of times of usage.  They have had the advice on how to wash them, so how to remove that initial slippery barrier.  The uniforms are fundamentally being very well received.  I hear the feedback that people do like it.  It makes our firefighters much safer, not only in the fact that they can identify contaminants, which is a very serious issue for me.  Previously, the dark blue meant that it was not obvious when it was dirty, and therefore firefighters were walking around in contaminated gear.  Also the fact that it is more ergonomic, firefighters can move far more easily in it, the heat transfer, and all the testing we have done that means that firefighters are much safer, and I am very pleased with the new equipment. 

Susan Hall AM:  Good.  Talking about cleaning them, that was something that came up at Wembley [Fire Station], and I know you have visited Wembley, Fiona.  There were some complaints about them having to clean their own uniform.  Can you comment on that?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience):  The issue, as I remember it from Wembley, because it did come up - I raised it with [Deputy Commissioner] Tom George and I am going to explore it a bit further as well - was about having proper facilities to clean.  I think they did not feel that there was appropriate space to clean their kit separate from where they -- I can talk to you about it.  I talked to Tom.  It was something that they were clearly concerned about and felt could be relatively easily addressed.  They suggested sinks outside.  I did feed that in and I will pursue it a bit more, but it is one of those things that you do not necessarily pick up unless you go to a station.  You can see from the Commissioner’s face that it is not something she was aware of, but it is something they raised with me when I went.  It clearly was an issue of concern.  There is no use in people being able to see that their kit is dirty if they cannot clean it in an appropriate way.  I am sure it can be relatively easily addressed.

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  The actual PPE itself is subject to a managed programme, so when it is contaminated it does go away to the manufacturers to be cleaned and washed and returned.  They have special bags to put the PPE in, and it then goes away for specialist cleaning.  There is then a second set for them at the station to use.  Heavily contaminated kit always goes away for external cleaning to ensure that the contaminants are thoroughly removed.

Susan Hall AM:  May I ask you to look into that?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  Of course.

Susan Hall AM:  It was something that was brought up separately with Fiona and me.  The joy is that you can see where they are contaminated, as you have said, whereas with the dark uniform, that looked much nicer but you could not see it was contaminated.  They said they had to clean their own uniforms, but if they were contaminated there was nowhere to clean the contaminations off and then ‑‑

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience):  It was the basic cleaning, rather than the decontamination. 

Susan Hall AM:  If I can ask you to take that back and get back to firefighters, because clearly it is something that is concerning them. 

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  Absolutely, of course.  Yes. 

Susan Hall AM:  Earlier you mentioned additional females joining, which is good news to us all.  Are you improving the women’s accommodation in stations?  When I did my tour of all the stations, the female accommodation in many was absolutely woeful.  It was underneath stairs.  It was shoved in the corner, etc.  If we are to encourage females to join, then they must have something that is more or less equivalent to the male changing rooms, etc. 

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  Absolutely.  I 100% agree with that.  If we want to encourage people to come into our workplaces, it is only fair that we give them something that is fit for them to work, change and rest in.  As part of our buildings programme we are looking at addressing that.  In some places it is far more difficult, where we have very old-style buildings where modifications are difficult and/or very expensive, but we are looking at ways in which we can transform accommodation, whether that is by having separate places that can be either used as male or female independently and separately.  We want to maintain the situation where we have individual spaces for showering, washing and that sort of thing for people. 

For me, it is about making it accessible for all people to come and work in the London Fire Brigade, and that is looking to the future as well, not only about the issue of men and women but the issue about transgender people in the London Fire Brigade.  That is something that we need to plan for into the future.  For me it is about recognising that there are different people in our communities.  Equally, for members of the public who are visiting our fire stations.  If we want to open the doors for them, they need to be accessible and places that people can come and visit in and use facilities.  It is an ongoing programme of work for me.  Obviously the women’s facilities are something dear to my heart, having started at fire stations where they did not exist at all in any way, shape or form.  Where we have got to now is progress, but nowhere near enough.

Susan Hall AM:  OK, thank you.  Finally, can you talk to me about your youth programme?  I was very, very involved in this for a long while.  First of all, the cadets: I believe they are increasing, which is exceptionally good news.  Can you talk to us about that?  Can you also refer back to the Local Intervention Fire Education (LIFE) Programme?  The LIFE Programme in my view is excellent, but they seem to drop off a cliff when they finish that week.  How are we integrating all of that work into the cadets?  If not, we have to look at the costing of the LIFE Programme because it is extremely expensive.

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  Yes.  I share your views and I welcome the support of all Assembly Members’ involvement in our youth engagement programmes.  As I have made very clear, not only are our youth engagement programmes the key to recruiting people to the future, they are also an instrumental part in making our communities safer.  In the experience I had recently where I went to a pass-out parade for one of our cadet courses, a number of the parents and carers of the young people there told me that they were convinced that had the young people not become involved in cadets, they would have become involved in gang crime instead in the areas they were living in.  For me, it is a really important intervention where we can help support the Mayor’s policing initiatives around knife crime and around gang crime, and I welcome the increase. 

I genuinely want to have a cadet unit in every borough and where we have high-risk areas.  I was in conversation recently with some community groups in Tower Hamlets, where we have cadets, but it is oversubscribed.  I would like to be able to increase the number of cadet units we have.  I am very pleased we now have a marine unit, we have a green unit, and we have a youth cadet unit as well.  For me, the reach of it and the potential for it is huge. 

It is around funding and it is around getting dependable funding for us to be able to continue with it.  You are right that some of our youth schemes are far more expensive, and how we translate those across and ensure we get the best value for those is something that I want to focus on, as is how we make sure that we keep contact with people who have been cadets and then get involved as young people, and how we can encourage them to work for the London Fire Brigade, not only as firefighters: whether it is in fire safety, whether it is in control or whether it is in any of our other functions.  The whole area of how we manage that youth engagement programme as one piece, not as separate pieces of work, because we do have a number of different strands and it is for me about ensuring they are co-ordinated, they are tied together and they are meaningful.  That is a piece of work that will be ongoing for me.

Susan Hall AM:  Good.  The LIFE Programme was started because unfortunately firefighters were being attacked.  Are firefighters still being attacked at work?

Dany Cotton QFSM (London Fire Commissioner):  I would love to say we were not, but we are subject to it at certain times.  Obviously the flashpoints are around things like Bonfire Night, where firefighters are still subject to having missiles and/or fireworks thrown at them.  It is an issue.  There are still certain areas of London where we do have problems, and sometimes it is still around that young people or gang culture.  I am pleased to say it is far less than it was.  We do report them as serious Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations events every time they happen because they are attacks on firefighters. 

It is then about us being able to identify and work with people in that local community.  It is very much about if we understand what is happening there, how we can make those interventions, whether or not we can then target those groups of people for a LIFE course or to encourage them to join cadets or to work with the local communities about how we can help the understanding of those young people about the importance of the fire service and about the dangers of attacking us and/or making hoax calls and/or fire-setting or any of those other things. 

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience):  The cadet programme is clearly a way that we are hoping to bring a much more diverse cohort into the gate.  It is something we have spoken about at the Fire Authority.  It has also come up at the Fire Committee.  For me, getting a cadet group in, at least one in every borough, would mean that the young people from across London have an equal chance to get those opportunities.  Otherwise it depends on whether you have a strong cadet group in your borough because it is quite unlikely that a young person would go two or three boroughs away to join, and it is just so important for us. 

When you speak to the cadets, we are always pleased when they say they want to be firefighters, but so many of them go on to apply for other emergency services.  As young Londoners who often do not have the easiest start in life, you can see how the programme transforms their lives and their opportunities.  It is not just an add-on for the Brigade to do.  It is bringing people through into the Brigade from our communities.  The work that the Commissioner, and the previous Commissioners, have done and the Youth Engagement Team at the Brigade is doing on an ongoing basis is truly impressive.  I hope that those of you who have not been along to a cadet group take the opportunity to do so.

Susan Hall AM:  OK.  It is good to hear we are doing something.  That firefighters and police officers are attacked is absolutely disgraceful, and anything we can do to stop it is good.  Thank you. 

Tony Arbour AM (Chairman):  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Commissioner, and thank you, Deputy Mayor, for your answers.