20-20-20 (Supplementary) [1]

Session date: 
October 25, 2012
Question By: 
Joanne McCartney
Labour Group
Asked Of: 


Can I ask what that will mean for resource allocation across the piece? We often hear particularly from different boroughs and from the police that when targets come down centrally you go after one crime type and then others suffer. Can I ask Craig Mackey what these targets could mean for resource allocation to deal with issues that Fiona [Twycross] and we would raise, perhaps domestic violence? Would it mean that other areas would not get the same priority?

Supplementary To: 


Answer for 20-20-20 (Supplementary) [1]

Answer for 20-20-20 (Supplementary) [1]

Answered By: 

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): No, and I think that is why it is important to see them in the light of the key performance indicator set we work with at the moment. I am happy to go through them all if you want that are reported weekly. There is a violence portfolio of performance indicators that covers violence with injury, sanction detection rates, common assaults, harassment, harassment detection rates, threats, conspiracy. In violence, rape, people killed and seriously injured on the road, the property portfolio of which a number of these fall in, we cover virtually every conceivable crime type and monitor them continually. That is where the thrust is and people do move resources around as the crime types change. We would expect that. A huge drive that has been going on in Territorial Policing is around domestic violence and it is around the work around the things that we know really do make a difference, like monitoring the arrest rate of domestic violence incidents, so a positive assertion that arrests will be made when they are there. That will not change, regardless of that target set.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): Will that data all be made public or publicly available?

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): That data does get made public. It gets made public in its crudest sense every time the national crime figures are published, but that is a long point afterwards. That data certainly comes across to MOPAC and can be put in the public domain.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): Is that going on the London Datastore?

Andrew Morley (Interim Chief Executive, Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime): I would need to check. I would assume that it is but I would need to check that so I can write to the Committee setting out exactly what is going on the Datastore.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): Can I ask, Deputy Commissioner, about this -- The MPS produces a weekly performance scorecard that goes to partners, in particular local authorities and those crime and disorder partnerships.

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): Yes.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): I have had concern expressed from mine that I believe from last month serious youth violence was knocked off that weekly scorecard and it was raised at my local crime and disorder partnership as an area of very great concern. Nineteen London boroughs are Home Office ending gangs and youth violence priority areas and local boroughs rely on that serious youth violence weekly data to actually understand how well they are performing and what it looks like on their borough. The issue about serious youth violence is it measures the victims, not the perpetrators.

The MPS has told boroughs that they are no longer going to be providing that data and instead they are going to have measures that relate to gang nominals in custody and subject to judicial restrictions only. They have been told that there is other data on the MPS intranet but of course partners do not have access to that. Could you look at that? My boroughs are certainly very concerned that serious youth violence is now not coming on a weekly basis.

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): I am more than happy to, Chair. To reassure you, it comes weekly, so I am surprised at that. Serious youth violence as of the last full week I have, 14 October, is down 33% across London. I am surprised we are not reporting that because some of that work is obviously down to the work that the boroughs are doing, so I am more than happy to take that away as an action, Chair.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): That would be great. I have an email trail here from the MPS saying,

'We are moving to provision of a direct performance dashboard that replaces the older reports. I appreciate your reliance on this report. Unfortunately we are unable to offer a reporting service for partners on this.'

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): All right. I will find out for you, Chair.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): Thank you. Deputy Commissioner, you mentioned about sanction detections. Previously, a MOPAC Challenge included a commitment to improving sanction detection rates from two in ten to at least three in ten. It covered all crime, not just the seven that we are now talking about in your 20-20-20 vision. Why have those sanction detection targets been removed?

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): I do not think they have, have they? They may not feature as part of the certainly from a MOPAC perspective it is certainly still an ambition on sanctions detections because there was some discussion around 50% being an ambitious target and all that. It certainly is still the case that we are expecting a sanction detection improvement from two out of ten to three out of ten. That has not changed. I have not seen anything that suggests that has changed at all.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): Fine. I do not believe it has been clear in what you have put out so far about this new vision, so perhaps that could be spelled out a bit clearer.

The other thing that previously the Metropolitan Police Authority (MPA) was particularly concerned about and did some work on actually was drug crime. I know a lot of those indicators, particularly about dishonesty, theft and robbery, we would say are driven by drug crime yet drug crime does not appear as one of the 20-20-20 indicators. Why is that?

Andrew Morley (Interim Chief Executive, Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime): Again, there is something around, as you quite rightly say, drugs drive a number of offences. There is some judgement that has to be applied about what offences you identify in terms of the 20-20-20 vision. But I go back to my earlier point. One should not assume from that that we are not routinely monitoring the data that the MPS are producing, that we are not routinely asking questions, that we are not routinely challenging that data, as indeed will others. So it is not an exclusive arrangement. Just because it does not appear as part of that does not mean that we do not have sophisticated arrangements for monitoring and we are not asking the right questions at the right time. It does feature as part of the suite of measures that the MPS are providing us on a weekly basis and will be publicly available.

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): And there is operational activity. I think most recently many Members will have seen the work around Operation Hawk and others and its focus against drugs. There are a number of key drivers for crime of which drugs is one. Sadly, probably in my police service, I cannot see that changing. We will still keep that focus on drugs and drugs work.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): Deputy Commissioner, do you have your own internal targets as well?

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): The drugs ones, I cannot find them on the list at the moment

Joanne McCartney (Chair): In general, do you have your own internal targets?

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): We have our own in general, yes. We have our own internal targets as well. We have a performance regime that looks at the internal targets as well from a whole range of parts of the organisation, from some of the very specialist areas, trying to come up with some ideas about outputs and targets for those, through to the high-volume work that goes on in boroughs on a daily basis. There is a system of monitoring that all the way through.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): Is that publicly available?

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): The targets are available, yes.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): It would be useful, I think, if we could have them after this meeting. That would be good. Before I bring Jenny in, the Mayor made a manifesto commitment to keeping around 32,000 police officers on the street and a previous MOPAC report referred to the MOPAC Challenge of increasing that visible police presence. However, it is clear that that is going to be extremely challenging. We had this week the Mayor's budget guidance saying he is willing to consider options that do not meet that 32,000 commitment and also we know that you are around 1,000 police community support officers (PCSO) down, particularly in Safer Neighbourhood Teams. I believe you are not yet sure how many more you can or will recruit because of budget and also your policing model. How will those commitments to frontline policing be measured?

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): At the end of the day, they will be measured in numbers and with some of the data we discussed earlier on in the week. For Members that were not there, around things like the operational policing model and the police objective analysis which Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) report on annually in terms of the work around it, which looks at the proportion of officers and staff in different segments and roles across the organisation. We are very clear. The budget guidance has come out this week in terms of where we have to aim for around it.

In terms of current officer numbers and officer strength at the moment, we always knew and we always planned that they were going to fall during the Olympics. We stopped training and recruiting over the Olympic period and we are only just restarting it. For all the obvious reasons that I think many Members know, we were not going to be running training and recruitment processes while we were running one of the busiest events the capital had ever seen, so we always knew numbers were going to fall like that. There are recruits coming in now that will grow the numbers again in terms of officers. But a very clear steer with the budget guidance to model for 32,000 officers.

Yes, of course it is going to be a challenge. As we discussed the other day, nothing around the budget is easy or straightforward when you have to take in the region of £500 million out of a £3.6 billion organisation. We will end up with a series of choices collectively. That is the budget modelling we are doing, but for obvious reasons with the accountability mechanism it goes to the Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime's office first.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): You said you would measure frontline policing by officer numbers, but of course frontline policing is also those PCSOs.

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): No, absolutely.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): It is others as well. I am going to come to Mr Morley if I can. Previously, the Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime has said he is going to come up with a definition of what you mean by frontline policing. Are you anywhere near that?

Andrew Morley (Interim Chief Executive, Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime): I am not aware of that being written down. The Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime is very clear in talking in terms of frontline police officers and those people that have contact with the public. That is the sort of language he uses. We have yet to absolutely define that, but we are on it. Hopefully we will be able to do that as part of the discussion around the local operational policing model.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): That is work that is still ongoing?

Andrew Morley (Interim Chief Executive, Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime): Yes.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): Jenny?

Jenny Jones (Deputy Chair): Thank you. Mr Mackey, I am quite concerned about the changes that are going to happen. It is going to be very tough for officers and for staff.

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): Absolutely.

Jenny Jones (Deputy Chair): At the moment, the MPS has a good flexible working policy. I am just wondering if that is the sort of thing that is going to come under threat because I have been told that the MPS had had a relationship with the Joint Prosecution Service (JPS) and there were staff who would go in early in the morning and prepare papers and that sort of thing. They were asked if they would attend from 6.30am in the morning on a voluntary basis and get a lump sum because of the change in their terms and conditions. They are now being told there is going to be a compulsory 7.00am start. Many of these staff are women with childcare commitments. It seems to me that somehow things are hardening up at the MPS and perhaps you are ditching some of your policies. Do you know about this particular case?

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): I know a little bit but probably not enough to give you the detail you want. I am aware that the union is in consultation in terms of the particular issues around the JPS and start times. I am aware, absolutely. I am aware of the feedback that people say, 'Actually, things will get tighter and will get tougher'. Of course I am aware of that feedback. I see and meet staff across the organisation on a daily basis who do worry about those sorts of things.

Jenny Jones (Deputy Chair): It is in your remit, is it, as Deputy Commissioner?

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): Sorry, no, JPS is within Territorial Policing, criminal justice. In the nicest way, most of it is within my remit because it is involving the change and reshaping of the organisation. However, I think lying behind the JPS one as well, there was not an option to do nothing. That is not just budgetary, The Crown Prosecution Service changed dramatically in terms of the way they combined across London, so we had to make some

Jenny Jones (Deputy Chair): Of course. However, this is more about how the MPS treats its staff and its officers, particularly staff because there are so many more women. We already know that the Government cuts have hit women hardest in Britain and now here is the MPS as well bearing down on the women that they employ.

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): I am more than happy to take that one away and come back to you with some of the detail that lies behind it.

Jenny Jones (Deputy Chair): I would be very grateful if you could. I would be very grateful because it is difficult getting answers from the MPS at the moment. It would be so nice to hear directly from you.

Could I ask you as well about the public satisfaction measure that you are using? It is very good. The aim is fantastic because the aim that you have would actually put you first amongst all the police forces. However, I am curious about why you chose the British Crime Survey (BCS) as the measure.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): I think this is to MOPAC.

Andrew Morley (Interim Chief Executive, Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime): Right, sorry. This is the 20-20-20 piece. I think in terms of the BCS measure, as I understand it - you are now testing my grasp for detail - but as I understand it, part of that is because it is nationally comparable, so we can compare it nationally with other forces. We are also routinely looking at the public attitudinal survey data that the MPS captures which gives us a far better sense. There are limitations with the BCS because it is a very small sample, but it is entirely true that we supplement that with I cannot remember what the sample is but the public attitudinal survey is fairly significant, is it not?

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): It is, yes.

Andrew Morley (Interim Chief Executive, Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime): There is a sort of correlation between the questions that we ask in both. In terms of the target you are right about the BCS, but in terms of the questions we would be asking about satisfaction both across the MPS and also locally in terms of boroughs, we would be looking very hard at the public attitudinal survey as well. It goes to my earlier point about us not just focusing on the seven crime types identified as part of the targets in the 20-20-20 vision piece.

Jenny Jones (Deputy Chair): I think we will all be very impressed if you can achieve it.

Andrew Morley (Interim Chief Executive, Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime): That is the ambition.

Craig Mackey (Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police Service): As I said, and we were very open when the challenge was set to us, I think that is the most challenging part of the target. I know we have had the debate in the round sometimes. Some of the drivers for public confidence I think we understand. Some of the others I do not think the police service yet understands fully.

Joanne McCartney (Chair): Thank you. Can I just check? Victim satisfaction is something that the Commissioner said when he came was an integral part of what he wanted to improve. The MPS is currently bottom of all the police forces in victim satisfaction. Is that something that you thought of putting in as one of the main targets in the 20-20-20 vision? That would seem to be the one that really needs to get off the floor.

Andrew Morley (Interim Chief Executive, Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime): On one level it does not fit with the 20-20-20 in terms of a 20% reduction, although victim satisfaction is absolutely considered by the Deputy Mayor for Polcing and Crime as a key priority. Again, one of the scheduled events around the MOPAC challenge is a specific thematic one on victim satisfaction, so there is an opportunity to look at the data, to understand what activity the MPS has in place in terms of improving victim satisfaction. But we also have an opportunity with the devolution of the victim support funding which comes in 2014/2015 according to current plans and the opportunity to look again about the holistic wraparound victim support service that we provide to make sure that those victims of crime are given the best possible service from the very beginning when they are a victim to the support they may need after that. We are thinking about what opportunities that provides for us and it is certainly a key priority for us.